Must religion be logical?

to which Kader replied:

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Well if you were to explain to me how come Jesus is Divine you woul dprobably have to quote the Bible.

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And in any event where I would say "but the bible is full of errors why should I believe this part ?" would you simply smile and say "It is, but...."

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I want to know the logic of what you could say after that "but...."

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Please try and explain to me how logical it is for you

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Well, first, I would never try to convert you to Christianity, or any other religion.I would say that the Bible is full of factual errors, and probably know many that you are not even aware of. But that has little to do with the value of the Bible or any other scripture.I find the story of Jesus life and ministry logical because it is the type of sweeping example and lesson a GOD, one that really did create the Universe might present.What more awesome lesson could there be than GOD, instead of simply telling us, became one of us, lived among us, suffering all the little indignities of humanity, having to learn how to control His bowels, to walk, to talk, to stumble, fall, get cut knees and boo-boos.Here is GOD teaching us about living not through words, but through actually doing it, giving up all the power that makes one GOD and becoming simply man.The story goes on though. GOD also clearly demonstrates that there is life after death, again not through simply words, but the physical reality of Jesus returning from the grave, to walk with His friends, talk with them, laugh with themFinally He shows us a glimpse of what GOD really is in the Ascension, when He returns to GOD, no longer mere human but GOD in all Her glory.So logically, I see the story of Jesus as what a real loving GOD would do, showing us not just by words, not just by profession, but through action and reality what His message, presence and communion is all about.See, no Bible quotes and my hands never left my arms.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Really? I have no idea. I can see no reason you should learn about GOD through me. I learn through what others have learned and what I experience. That is how knowledge is passed on and accumulated. For me GOD is self evident. But that is just me.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But Brian it does, and I even quoted the part for you in Message 81.

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Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;

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No, Jesus did not do that, GOD did. GOD raised Him from the dead.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Kader keeps bouncing around and never seems to follow any subject or line of thought.He had asked me why I believe the divinity of Jesus to be logical, and I responded. His next response though had nothing to do with that issue but instead wandered off into signs or something.It is tiresome work for an old man to have to prance like a pony.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I can only tell you how I read it and that is for me, pretty clear. The passage says "made man" not dressed as man, or appearing as man, or look like man. All of those concepts were familiar to the writers at the time and had been used often. In the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah we see agles that appear as men. But they are angels in disguise.For there to be a sacrifice, GOD must become man, to live as man. Not pretend to be man.The tale of Jesus only makes sense if He is really just man. But no I did not Brian. I did not say that GOD (Jesus) had become man.This is the mystery of the Trinity. Are God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit three entities or three aspects of one entity? I don't imagine that will get solved in this thread or any other.But there is ample support for the idea of GOD still being in existence while Jesus walks the Earth. Jesus prays to GOD, expresses the concept that it is still GOD who is in charge and determining outcomes.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And the wheel turns. I say that it doesn't matter whether any of the stories in the Bible are true or simply fables told around the campfire, and you say "No, they must be true."Perhaps your position, for you, is a reasonable position. It is exactly the same position of the Biblical Literalist who says "If anything in the Bible is not fact and true then the whole thing is false and Christianity is a fraud." If so, then fine. I have no problem with you holding that belief.But as I have said repeatedly, that is not the position I hold nor is it really IMHO a logical one.As an example.In the Bible Jesus teaches using parables. He speaks of the ass that gets caught in a crack and the two houses built on different foundations and the Good Samaritan.Does it matter whether any of those things happened? The message is still the same regardless, is it not? Well, no. How many times need I repeat this. First we are talking about the Bible. Second, I have said that even if the Bible is no more than fables told around a campfire the message would still be valid. Third, you asked me why I believe the story of Jesus and I explained that the reason I believe it is because I think it is the kind of message the GOD I believe in would send.Notice in what I have said you do not find the words fact or absolute, but rather belief. Well I am certainly not smart enough to know TRUTH, whatever that is. For the most part I only worry about truth when it is something that is possible to determine anyway.If GOD exists, She exits regardless of any evidence God does not exist.If GOD does not exist, then He does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist.If there is a GOD, then that is true regardless of any beliefs or evidence to the contrary.If GOD does not exist, then regardless of belief or evidence God does not exist.There is no way to test the existence of GOD, so until we die and find out for sure, none of us can really know the answer to that question.We can however have beliefs and opinions on the issue. I happen to believe that GOD exists. I believe that He does. However I am also honest enough to know that there is no way to verify that fact, I could be wrong. Well that can be easily handled. There are innumerable places that will give you a Bible. Seek out your local Anglican priest and ask for one. But you can only get Knowledge yourself. You are completely in charge of what you learn.There are also numerous copies of the Bible online and you can read whichever version or translation you prefer. At Bible Gateway you can find many versions including two in French. How many times must I repeat this. I do not use the words proved or fact or surety when I speak of Religion. I have said that I consider all religions including Christianity as Maps, not the Territory. The other folk are reading a different Map than I am, yet we are all in the same Territory. I understand but again, I have said that I don't think that much matters. If you have never heard of Jesus then it is very unlikely that you will be a Christian.So what? I do not say that you need the Bible to find GOD. I also doubt that anyone understands GOD. The best we can do is build some image that may be more or less like the reality. I think so. When we look at the universe one thing that stands out is that the laws of physics appear to be universal. Given similar conditions, gravity appears to behave the same way regardless of where those points are, the atomic forces appear to work the same everywhere, when we look at the limited sample of life we know of, the processes seem to be pretty much the same for all.If GOD created the world, then it appears that all of creation is created to the same set of rules. Had there been multiple Gods, would that be true?Possibly. For example one God might have been in charge of all life and so we would find all life following his rules.But then when we look at the details, we find that living things also follow the same atomic forces as stars and galaxies. That for me implies that if the separate God that created life exists, She had to use the rules of whichever God created the rules of physics.We can carry this on to look at the God of Chemistry for example and again, we see that the God of Chemistry also had to use the rules of the God of Physics.Or we could imagine that different Gods created different areas. But again, when we look we see that all the areas of the universe seem to follow the same rule sets.Since we do see that uniformity at the most basic levels, I believe that there is but one GOD. I believe that if there is a GOD then that GOD will be complete. Is that GOD all loving? Likely. If we really are Her creation then I would imagine that GOD, like a parent, would wish the best for His children. Again with the proof.I have said repeatedly that even if we found absolute proof that Jesus existed it would not address His divinity.I have no proof. I have offered no proof. I will offer no proof. I require no proof.Again I repeat:"If GOD exists, She exits regardless of any evidence God does not exist.If GOD does not exist, then He does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist."

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Not exactly. I do not believe that GOD ceased to exist when Jesus became man.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Kader, you say: I believe GOD exists. But I must in all honesty also admit that I could be wrong. That might be so. My beliefs are not all that unusual though and I have taught this and even more controversial views in Adult Sunday School. So far none of the Priests have been overly concerned with my beliefs. In fact as I mentioned earlier, this Sundays sermon was on the fact of Jesus being only man while living here among us, and it was preached by a Lutheran trained Pastor. Likely so. But I do take my beliefs very seriously and I have spent a great deal of time challenging them. I am not sure all Christians question their beliefs. I have been told by many that the very idea of questioning their beliefs is too far out of their comfort zone. There are many things where we can never know if they are true or not. Take it from a man who twice got married believing each time that it was for life, only to find that not to be true. That's fine, I see no reason that you must believe in Jesus.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Why?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Why do they need to come from anything?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion