What would your doctor say?

Robin, it is true that there is often pressure to identify with one group or another, especially in certain circumstances, such as in prison.Do you think that scientists are so stupid and clueless that they don't know about this, and that they don't design experiments to minimize these kinds of things?

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In name, yes. It doesn't mean much for somebody who's never given it a moment's thought.

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How do you know that they have never given it a moment's thought?

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In our country, it is considered GOOD to be religious in some sense of that word. So they pick up on that and say they are religious.

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Again, how do you know this?

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No, but this matter is not something that can be calculated scientifically. It all depends on what one means by "religious."

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Robin.The scientific question is, "What religious group do people in certain populations self-identifywith?"It doesn't matter how anybody else but the people being asked the question define "Buddhist" or "Jewish" or "Catholic", etc.

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Experience.

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...which means "just believe me cuz I know, cuz I just do."In other words, you "feel" that this is the case but you can't demonstrate it to be so.Right?Remember, the whole point of my bringing these stats into this discussion is that the claim was made that Atheists and Agnostics "fill the prisons" along with believers, when the opposite is supported by the data.You have provided no rational argument for why we should discard all of the data.

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The scientific question is, "What religious group do people in certain populations self-identify with?"

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That's all very well, but it doesn't mean much.

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Do you reject the self-reported data from the general population?Why or why not?Do you reject all self-reported data?Why or why not?

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What I'm saying is that just because somebody calls themselves a Christian, in prison, it doesn't mean much.

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So why are the numbers of Christians and Atheists/Agnostics in prison fairly close to that found in the general population?

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"Fairly close"?

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Yes.Prison population-Christian: 83.761%
General population-Christian:76.5%Prison population-Atheist:0.21%
General population-Atheist:0.9%-13.2% (depending upon how you count them)Very close, I'd say.

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Anyway, it doesn't matter. It proves nothing.

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Nothing proves anything.There is data.How do you explain the data?How do you explain the very similar numbers between the two populations?Why would there be such a similar proportion if people answer randomly or inaccurately most of the time?

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Yes, and why do they call themselves that?

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This is irrelevant to my point, FYI.The point I was challenging was that Atheists and Agnostics "fill the prisons" just as much as believers due to their "low morals".This is not true, as the data shows.

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83 and 76? Quite a few more "Christians" in prison, I'd say.

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I never thought I'd have to gice a stats/math lesson to a teacher, but there's a first for everything, I suppose.Do you notice anything about the relative similarity between the proportions of the two groups in prison and the two groups in the general population?These two numbers are pretty similar: ..and these two numbers are pretty similar: Why might we see this?

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Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean you have low morals, but we don't need a survey to figure that out.

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But we DO need a survey to know if Atheists and Agnostics "fill the prisons" just as much as believers do.When we look at the data, we see that they do not.

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These surveys are meaningless. We don't know what somebody thinks in their heart. We don't know if their self-designation as this or that has any influence on them.

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So, you DO reject all data that is self-reported.So from now on, it's perfectly OK for me to insist that you are not actually an Atheist, is that correct?I am allowed to disregard your stated religious self-identification, correct, because it is ompossible for anyone to accurately report their own religion?

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From what I've seen, most people act like atheists to me.

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Like I have already said, it doesn't matter what they act like.Behavior is irrelevant; it is only their own beliefs that are relevant.What is so difficult for you to understand about that?So why are the numbers of Christians and Atheists/Agnostics in prison fairly close to that found in the general population?

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"Fairly close"?

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Yes. Very close, I'd say.

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Anyway, it doesn't matter. It proves nothing.

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Nothing proves anything.There is data.How do you explain the data?Do you notice anything about the relative similarity between the proportions of the two groups in prison and the two groups in the general population?These two numbers are pretty similar: ..and these two numbers are pretty similar: Why might we see this?Come on, robin, put on your thinking cap and stop being so belligerant.How do you explain the very similar numbers between the two populations?Why would there be such a similar proportion if people answer randomly or inaccurately most of the time? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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I'm not being belligerent.

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OK, then answer the questions:How do you explain the very similar numbers between the two populations?Why would there be such a similar proportion if people answer randomly or inaccurately most of the time?

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You think that .21% is close to 1%? Or to 13%? That's a difference ranging from 500% to 5000%.

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Well, the reason I include the 13% figure for the A/A's is because I have included those who don't call themselves A/A, nor do they consider themselves religious or spiritual.Those actually stating that they are A/A is very small, in either population.And besides, given the error margins in polling, .21% and 1% are indistinguishable.

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Maybe I'm coming in late, and you're being sarcastic and I don't understand, but I don't see those numbers as very close. I see them as well outside of the ranges of each other we would expect, in fact, if atheists were going to jail at roughly the same rate as Christians.

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I was referring to the proportions of Christians and A/A's in the general population compared to that in the prison population.Taken generally, one can say in either case that the large majority are Christian, and a small minority is A/A.My point in bringing this up at all was because robin called all such data "worthless" because it was self-reported. I asked him to explain the general similarity of the results (lots and lots of Christians, tiny amount of A/A's) between to compared groups if self-reporting was so inaccurate and unreliable.Nothing from him yet except sullen, 5 word replies.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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1) Who is a christian? Is it some one who reads the Bible? Or is it someone who goes to church? If this is how a person is defiend as a christian, then the closeness of the numbers is self explanatory. A dog sitting in a garage does not become a car.

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A Christian is someone who calles themselves a Christian, as far as I'm concerned.

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2) Christians are also human beings. They have the same weaknesses like anyone else. Christians are not perfect. So, not all of them, but some of them will commit crimes and go to prison.Yet the numbers do not match.

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Which numbers do not match?

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3) Who makes these polls?

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Social scientists did the ones I referenced, IIRC.

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For example, in a local newspaper, there was afull page article on the polling of the attitudes of US citizens towards illegal immigrants. The poll showed that 85% of US citizens want the illegal immigrants to be granted citizenship. However, I am yet to find out people (US citizens) in favor of illegal immigration. What the newspaper did was to poll illegal immigrants only. Who is polling? Who are being polled? What are the questions? All these factors determine the outcome of any poll.

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I agree. However, asking someone's opinion about immigration is a bit different than asking about personal religious affiliation.The former is much more likely to change than the latter.

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On this basis, I would state that the polling of christian prisoners and non christian prisoners and general population is flawed.After all Statistics can be used to prove as well as disprove anything and polling is a simple statistical tool.

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Not all polling is flawed, and not all statistical analysis is untrustworthy.After all, stistical analysis is ubiquitous in all scientific work and if it was so flimsy and easily corrupted then the science-based technology that our western lives are so dependent upon wouldn't be so reliable.

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"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

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So, what is important is who is doing the polls and what are the questions and who are the subjects. The results can be manipulated by altering these parameters. Here is something interesting. Many many yers ago, I was a civilian invloved in Defense research project. We were assigned the job of studying the nutritional requirements of troops in the battle field. We did the study for 3 months in a mock battle field. We identified lots of pilferage of food and our results showed that they were getting insufficient calories. However, the Director wanted to cut down the rations. There was no justification as our results were contradicting his assumptions. They actually needed increase in the rations.

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So, he assigned the statistician to work the numbers backwards till he was given the results he wanted. When he cut the ration, he was given an award for saving the defense budget!!!!!!!!!

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Well, that's fraud.Just because this director cooked his numbers doesn't impact the usefullness of correctly conducted polling.