Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?

no, i didn't argue that. that was what you said, actually. thus, the irony that you missed. yes, because the palestinians are nobodies. afterall, they're only dissidents and refuges. it's not like they actually live there or anything. which jews, specifically? the european jews? the ethiopian jews? or the ones that were already there for centuries not owning it? again, i think you have no idea what israel is actually like. it's something rather like the US is, comprised of people of many different origins. there are all kinds of jews in israel, african, european, american, and semitic jews. there are many, many christians, and many muslims as well. and there are a vast number of people who are secular, with various kinds of ethnic backgrounds.

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Where on earth did I say that? I don't remember saying it at all. Your ironies usually bomb.

The Palestinian REFUGEES are not the same people as those who inhabited Palestine in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The early inhabitants were a mix of all tribes and ethnicities and even religions, including Jews and Christians. The vast majority of today's "Palestinian" refugees are the descendants of the Arabs who moved from all over the Arab world into the area to work for the Israelis. Their claim to any "Palestinian" heritage whatever is largely a concocted fantasy. NEVERTHELESS, give them a state. But they won't take it anyway.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

So no one has a right to the land they live on unless they claim a right to it?You must think that anyone who puts down a flag on a scrap of land has the right to own it even though someone else has been there for 1000 years, am I right?Just because a group of people did not conceive of themselves as a "nation" does not mean that that they did not love and work the soil that they were born of. That, Faith, is a projection of "western ideals" if I ever heard of one.The Biblical people of Israel supposedly conquered the land "promised" to them a millenia or more ago but that is no reason to assume that they can come back and usurp the peoples that have filled the lands since then no matter how "uncivilized" they may seem to western eyes. Just like Europeans "discovered" lands where other people lived. Exactly how does that happen?Just because Palestine wasn't a "nation" does not mean that they cannot claim a right to the lands that their ancestors dwelt in.You should watch out for your own western notions especially when you call others on theirsEdited by Jaderis, : To add a few specifics

Oh get a grip. You're just making up stuff. The Palestinians who were already there have not been cast out. Many are residents of Israel, some million Arabs I believe. The refugees who are there now are mostly NOT descendants of the ones who were already there a century ago as you claim. But it doesn't matter anyway becasue they've been offered a state time and time again and will not take it anyway. They want Israel dead, that's why. As long as they are kept in the position of suffering refugees people will hate Israel and that's why they refuse.Anyway all of us are oversimplifying the question of who is a Palestinian. It's not that easy to figure out. Here's a Wikipedia article on it:Palestinians - WikipediaEdited by Faith, : No reason given.

This is certainly the big question.It is a difficult one, but Israel has been given a land to house her nation of people, so the question is redundant. How she got the land and how she is treating her neighbours are also big questions.But as for the legal side, why is it legal for Israel to be given her old stomping ground and other displaced nations are not. For example, if it is views as 'right' for Israel to go back to the land of her roots, then why don't the native Americans insist on having their land back? The legal choice is that Israel has the land and there's nothing anyone can do about it. The moral choice is for Israel to stop terrorising Palestine and try to keep their end of the peace negotiations. Also, there's a whole list of Israeli PM's who should be charged with war crimes.Brian.

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or the ones that were already there for centuries not owning it?

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Good eye.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

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So no one has a right to the land they live on unless they claim a right to it?

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You must think that anyone who puts down a flag on a scrap of land has the right to own it even though someone else has been there for 1000 years, am I right?

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Well, that is pretty much how it worked in North America and Australia (among other places). As I've said before, except for the fact that the colonizers in this case make a bizarre claim of being "indigenous", the pattern is pretty much in line with the European (especially "Anglo-Saxon") colonial project.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

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The legal choice is that Israel has the land and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

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Which goes to show how idiot, self-serving policy decisions can have tragic consequences for generations to come.I would go further and state that most Israelis have lived there all there lives (some for a couple of generations now), and have as much a moral right to a home there as anyone -- but what can I say? As a white North American, I can feel a little sympathy for them.The question is how do the legitimate rights of all the people who live there get translated into the idiot notion of "homelands"?I think that, like it or not, the ultimate solution is going to have to be two independent states in the area -- not necessarily the most practical, but I believe that the majority of people on both sides prefer such a solution, ultimately.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

Indeed. The initiation of Israel has had some far reaching consequences, and it wasn't (and still is) political self-serving decisions that helped them to return. Christians bombarded politicians and newspapers urging them to place Israel back in Her homeland, anything to help prophecy along, freaking idiots. Yes. They have settled there now, and to be fair, as you say, many were born and raised there and know nothing else. This is probably the most sensible answer, but the most sensible often gets overtaken by these self serving policies you mention. With Israel being the only democracy in the region, and its ties with America, I can't see there ever being full peace in the area. I'll keep wishing for it though.Brian.

Exactly. Yes, it's been done since people decided to stray beyond their initial stomping grounds, but I was questioning whether it is right to do so. Or, rather, if Faith and others think it is right to do so.

The wikipedia article shows nothing of which you claim. Just because Palestine did not exist as a country so named or theorized until the 20th century does not mean that people did not live there. National identity is a relatively recent phenomenon (some peoples acquiring it much earlier than others) and has often been the result of of empire and colonialism, either directly bestowed on a people from the conquering power or formed by the people in response to colonization (as in the case of Palestine).The areas called Palestine include(d) many different religions and groups of people (mostly genetically, but not necessarily culturally, related). The wikipedia article states that the censuses taken in the region were unreliable as to numbers, but not to the fact that people actually lived there and that their descendents are the ones in refugee camps today. From wikipedia:

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Palestinian citizens of Israel have political representation in the Knesset (Israeli parliament). The Israeli government asserts that non-Jewish Palestinian citizens of Israel have nearly all the same rights and obligations as Jewish Israelis (which includes Palestinian Jews), but there are some fundamental differences and restrictions.

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Emphasis mine.

maybe you just don't pay enough attention.

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The "Palestinians" never had such a "feeling" until Israel came along.

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that statement implies quite strongly that the palestinians were there first.

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no, most of those people are dead now.the palestinian refugees are refugees because, surpise, israel took over their land in 1948. they are refugess from israel. whether or not you think that's justified, it is a point of fact. the earliest inhabitants are recorded in the bible."palestinian" is an updated version of "philistine." both are exactly the same word in hebrew. what about their claim to the land that fell under israeli control?

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indeed, some of the people they (supposedly) originally conquered millenia ago in that area were (suprise!) the palestinians.and you think there's no religious motivation here?

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