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Author Topic:   Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 271 of 301 (333180)
07-19-2006 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 9:05 PM


Re: oh, great
quote:
So it all started when he hit me back huh?
That's not what I said. I simply pointed out that the justification you gave for Israel's actions also worked for Hezbollah. I don't buy that justification, and apparently neither do you since you choose to misrepresent my post rather than answer my point..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 9:05 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Wepwawet, posted 07-19-2006 6:57 PM PaulK has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 272 of 301 (333219)
07-19-2006 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 8:51 PM


Re: disproportionate
I found myself believing that one of mine is worth more than all of theirs combined
Who are 'they'? I thought 'they' were Hezbollah, but is it the case that 'they' include innocent civillians who are worth basically nothing compared with one of your soldiers?
Does that mean its OK for American civillians to be killed because of Guantanamo bay? After all, the US government has it in their power to return the insurgents and get out of the Middle East whenever they like.

This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 273 of 301 (333259)
07-19-2006 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Wepwawet
07-19-2006 12:19 AM


Re: oh, great
That's where Palestinian legitimacy falls flat on its ass.
What are you talking about, the Palestinians used to OWN the country.
Btw, you left off the closing words in your avatar---'Faith sees God, Intellect does not 'need to'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Wepwawet, posted 07-19-2006 12:19 AM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Omnivorous, posted 07-19-2006 10:34 AM Nighttrain has not replied
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 274 of 301 (333271)
07-19-2006 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Nighttrain
07-19-2006 9:58 AM


Re: oh, great
Nighttrain writes:
What are you talking about, the Palestinians used to OWN the country.
And at one time the Zionists were planting bombs in hotels, no?
Btw, you left off the closing words in your avatar---'Faith sees God, Intellect does not 'need to'.
Heh. I've been pondering Wepwawet's sig:
When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research
I prefer Augustine:
If anyone shall set the authority of Holy Writ against clear and manifest reason, he who does this knows not what he has undertaken; for he opposes to the truth not the meaning of the Bible, which is beyond his comprehension, but rather his own interpretation; not what is in the Bible, but what he has found in himself and imagines to be there.

God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ”Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01
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This message is a reply to:
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Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 275 of 301 (333490)
07-19-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by arachnophilia
07-19-2006 12:45 AM


Re: oh, great
you are aware that hizballah is the main party in a democratically elected alliance control of southern lebanon, right? that's not quasi-government, that IS government.
Yes, but to the best of my knowledge the decision to attack Israel was made unilaterally by Hezbollah and not through a normal Lebanese government proceeding. Picture the Montana state legislature ordering an attack on Canada.
personally, a lot of us feel that bush and co hijacked our country. but if china starts bombing us, we're not gonna say "thank you." in fact, we'd probably support bush in bombing the hell out of them in return.
Strange that a democratically elected government is hijacking our country in your eyes. What sort of government would you prefer? Perhaps a single party system run by the intelligentsia who know what's best for all the little people?
israel is fighting a two-front war.
All the more reason they should fight blindfolded with both hands tied behind their backs right? Could you please share a word of condemnation for the terrorists who started this latest round of bloodshed?
Here's a thing to think about...if you take away the guns from all the Arabs in the region I believe the fighting would stop. If you take away the guns from all the Israelis I believe they would all be killed. Do you agree or disagree?
?—
? —
Now I'm jealous. I'm afraid I don't speak Hebrew but wish I did. Selah is a saying that tends to come after reading of psalms...which I'm sure you know...basically meaning "finished" or "the end". I'm sure you could explain it much better, but I'd have to find a matzoh package around here if I wanted to try translating from the alef-bet.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 12:45 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 11:37 PM Wepwawet has replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 276 of 301 (333494)
07-19-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by PaulK
07-19-2006 2:18 AM


Re: oh, great
I'm sorry Paul, I thought I did address your point, I'll try again...
Hezbollah has taken hostages which they wish to use to barter for prisoners held by the Israelis.
The Israelis (to the best of my knowledge) hold criminal prisoners accused and convicted (I am not saying there are no abuses here folks) of crimes.
Hezbollah may not see or care about the difference, but I do. I won't say that Israel is justified for holding every single prisoner, but they are definitely not holding hostages.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2006 2:18 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2006 2:36 AM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 287 by sidelined, posted 07-20-2006 10:33 AM Wepwawet has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 277 of 301 (333505)
07-19-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Nighttrain
07-19-2006 9:58 AM


Re: oh, great
What are you talking about, the Palestinians used to OWN the country.
That's a very simplistic way of looking at a complex issue. Did they own the country when it was a British protectorate? Did they own the country under the Ottomans? Did they own it before Saladin, Alexander, David or Joshua? What about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who freely sold their property to Jews prior to the founding of Israel? Jews had legally purchased over 30% of the land involved in the 1947 partition plan. So the question of who owns what is rather less simple than you want it to be.
Whether it was right or not to create a Jewish state is a moot point. It is what it is and there doesn't seem to be a solution acceptable to all parties. There is no longer a right or just solution to the problem.
Btw, you left off the closing words in your avatar---'Faith sees God, Intellect does not 'need to'.
That's a real honest-to-God church sign picture, not a church sign generator replica. I agree with your sentiment, but the people who go to that church probably wouldn't.
Oh, and about the Sig line Omni: I'm not supporting Hank Morris...I'm laughing at him. It's a classic example of why creationism is not science.
Edited by Wepwawet, : Tossing in a line for Omnivorous

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Nighttrain, posted 07-19-2006 9:58 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Nighttrain, posted 07-20-2006 2:12 AM Wepwawet has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 301 (333550)
07-19-2006 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
07-17-2006 10:16 PM


Re: who learned from who?
jar writes:
Okay Buz. Let's head towards the topic. And remember, Islam and the Qur'an are deemed off topic by none other than Buz.
That's not what I said Jar and you know it. Whether the Quran teaches that Islam is a violient religion is another topic and has been covered a number of times.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 07-17-2006 10:16 PM jar has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 279 of 301 (333566)
07-19-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 8:51 PM


Re: disproportionate
Hezbollah has it in their power to return the soldiers and get out of Southern Lebanon whenever they like.
You make it sound like Hezbollah has somehow invaded Sothern Lebanon - it's their region of their country. Obviously not everyone in the area is a Hezbollah supporter but they basically are part of the local population.
Still, given that the rest of your post makes it clear you are willing to commit genocide to achieve your aims I suppose it's not suprising you're in favour of a bit of ethnic cleansing as well.
If they're ever caught maybe you can exchange notes with Mladic and Karadzic.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 8:51 PM Wepwawet has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 280 of 301 (333570)
07-19-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Wepwawet
07-19-2006 6:46 PM


Re: oh, great
Yes, but to the best of my knowledge the decision to attack Israel was made unilaterally by Hezbollah and not through a normal Lebanese government proceeding. Picture the Montana state legislature ordering an attack on Canada.
and now picture canada bombing subburbs in montana in retaliation.
Strange that a democratically elected government is hijacking our country in your eyes. What sort of government would you prefer? Perhaps a single party system run by the intelligentsia who know what's best for all the little people?
no, actually, the point is that we wouldn't prefer something other than democracy -- but we just have to redress our greivances through the system. while we do not approve of the direction bush is taking the country, we would not welcome a foreign country bombing us.
All the more reason they should fight blindfolded with both hands tied behind their backs right? Could you please share a word of condemnation for the terrorists who started this latest round of bloodshed?
yes, by all means. hizballah is petty and childish, from what i have seen, and hate-mongers. i don't know a whole lot about them -- but if they are anything like hamas in their support of suicide bombings, they are despicable and evil for not only their murder of israeli civilians, but their abuse of people through the manipulatory power of religion. heinous on almost all fronts.
i just don't think that "they want to kill us all" is a good enough reason to kill them all. it's hard to claim moral high ground when the solution is the same as the problem. from what i have heard, israel ceased bombings to allow civilians leave. while probably mostly a political gesture, it is a welcome and humanitarian one.
but this "us or them" mentality doesn't work. disapproving of hizballah and hamas does not mean i have to approve of every israeli action against them.
Here's a thing to think about...if you take away the guns from all the Arabs in the region I believe the fighting would stop. If you take away the guns from all the Israelis I believe they would all be killed. Do you agree or disagree?
i disagree. if you take away the palestinians' guns, they will pick up rakes and torches. take those away, and they will pick up stones. this is life or death to them, and as the suicide bombings should prove, they are willing to fight it using their own bodies and lives as weapons. taking away their guns will only make them fight HARDER, if less effectively.
if you take away the israelis' guns they will not all die. they've faced much bigger threats than some unruly palestinians. they've faced the babylonian empire, the assyrian empire, the roman empire, and nazi germany, and lived to tell the tales. taking away their guns, actually, would not do a whole hell of a lot, to the tell the truth. guns are piss-poor at stopping martyrs -- and martyrs happen to be the weapon the enemy is using.
Now I'm jealous. I'm afraid I don't speak Hebrew but wish I did. Selah is a saying that tends to come after reading of psalms...which I'm sure you know...basically meaning "finished" or "the end". I'm sure you could explain it much better, but I'd have to find a matzoh package around here if I wanted to try translating from the alef-bet.
actually, i just turned your point around on you with a subtlety of dagesh placement. "selah" has two different meanings. the first -- the one you meant to use, is "exalt" or "lift up." it's probably used in music (psalms) to indicate a rest or pause. the other meaning, a more sarcastic usage, means "to make light of" although most of the times it's used in the bible it means "treading upon" (in the figurative sense -- abusing someone).
edit: just for clarification and the purposes of accuracy and modesty -- i don't speak hebrew either. i've taken a few semesters of the language in college, and thus can read and figure out a good deal of things, but i am neither jewish nor israeli, and hardly fluent. but i'm working on that...
Edited by arachnophilia, : added edit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Wepwawet, posted 07-19-2006 6:46 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Wepwawet, posted 07-20-2006 12:46 AM arachnophilia has replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 281 of 301 (333593)
07-20-2006 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by arachnophilia
07-19-2006 11:37 PM


Re: oh, great
and now picture canada bombing subburbs in montana in retaliation.
What exactly do you think they should do?
yes, by all means. hizballah is petty and childish, from what i have seen, and hate-mongers. i don't know a whole lot about them -- but if they are anything like hamas in their support of suicide bombings, they are despicable and evil for not only their murder of israeli civilians, but their abuse of people through the manipulatory power of religion. heinous on almost all fronts.
Thank you. I'll add that they are little more than a puppet organization doing what Tehran tells them. Tehran is open about this (although it's seldom covered here) and uses the relationship to try to bolster their reputation as the saviours of Islam.
i just don't think that "they want to kill us all" is a good enough reason to kill them all. it's hard to claim moral high ground when the solution is the same as the problem. from what i have heard, israel ceased bombings to allow civilians leave. while probably mostly a political gesture, it is a welcome and humanitarian one.
This is the nub of our disagreement I think. You seem to think that Israel is acting in a manner that recklessly disregards civilian casualties and I think that they are acting with utmost care and restraint. For example the Israelis are habitually leafletting areas warning civilians to stay away from targets...this is not required under any international law and it gives the enemy the chance to leave the area along with the civilians, reducing the overall effectiveness of the attack and placing the Israeli soldiers at greater risk.
i disagree. if you take away the palestinians' guns, they will pick up rakes and torches. take those away, and they will pick up stones. this is life or death to them, and as the suicide bombings should prove, they are willing to fight it using their own bodies and lives as weapons. taking away their guns will only make them fight HARDER, if less effectively.
Rakes and torches only work against the Frankenstein monster I'm afraid...
It's my personal opinion that suicide attacks are a sign of weakness. Dying is easier than sucking up their pride and doing what it takes to stop the killing. The brave martyrs are mostly foolish children who have been brainwashed into thinking that deliberately blowing up other children will get them into heaven.
You'll notice that the Palestinians seem unable to form a disciplined military...why learn how to march and do pushups when you can shoot your gun in the air and scream defiance at the enemy? Compare their antics to any of the successful guerrilla movements in history...the way I see it they're playing games. History may prove me wrong.
actually, i just turned your point around on you with a subtlety of dagesh placement. "selah" has two different meanings. the first -- the one you meant to use, is "exalt" or "lift up." it's probably used in music (psalms) to indicate a rest or pause. the other meaning, a more sarcastic usage, means "to make light of" although most of the times it's used in the bible it means "treading upon" (in the figurative sense -- abusing someone).
Languages are wonderful things. Thanks for explaining that to me.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 11:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2006 12:52 AM Wepwawet has not replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 282 of 301 (333594)
07-20-2006 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Wepwawet
07-20-2006 12:46 AM


Re: oh, great
You seem to think that Israel is acting in a manner that recklessly disregards civilian casualties and I think that they are acting with utmost care and restraint.
I think that claim is pretty quickly belied by the facts. Just from what I heard on the radio this morning, so far ~25 Israelis have died in the terrorist rocket attacks, while more than 250 Lebanese civilians are dead from Israeli reprisal. Keeping in mind that the terrorists are actually aiming for civilians, etc, how do you explain this discrepancy?
Was it care and restraint when they airbombed a convoy of ambulances? Was it care and restraint when they destroyed a milk factory?
Any claim that Israel is acting with restraint evaporates when you actually look at the facts. As for these leaflets you mention - the British corresponded I was listening to on the radio this morning, who's been a resident of Lebannon for several decades? He's never seen such a leaflet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Wepwawet, posted 07-20-2006 12:46 AM Wepwawet has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by BMG, posted 07-20-2006 12:47 PM crashfrog has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 283 of 301 (333598)
07-20-2006 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Wepwawet
07-20-2006 12:46 AM


Re: oh, great
What exactly do you think they should do?
well, i have a feeling you won't accept "ignore them" as a good answer. this war may well be more justified than the palestinian front, but the issue here is the disproportionate response.
it might be effective strategy to kill ten times more than your enemy -- but it might just also piss off the islamic countries this regime is tied to. thus the "oh, great." there is no winning this, but actions that make things worse should probably be avoided. you don't want to strengthen your enemy's arguments, or provide them with martyrs.
personally, i feel the best argument is found in the new testament. love your enemy. they bomb you, you send them care packages and take care of their poor. suicide bombings? send the family of the terrorist condolences on their loss. ridiculous, i know -- but you will not win this battle killing civilians to fight terrorists. that just creates more terrorists. rather, you will win by demonstrating that you are not what they claim you to be, and that you are in fact better for the people there than hizballah or hamas is. if the civilians are happy, they will not elect terrorist groups, and the terrorists will find no people to draft.
Thank you. I'll add that they are little more than a puppet organization doing what Tehran tells them. Tehran is open about this (although it's seldom covered here) and uses the relationship to try to bolster their reputation as the saviours of Islam.
i am aware that iran regularly sends aid and support to hizballah (mutual hatred of israel), but i'm not sure if they are taking orders from iran. if they are, well. we're looking at war with iran. we probably are anyways.
This is the nub of our disagreement I think. You seem to think that Israel is acting in a manner that recklessly disregards civilian casualties and I think that they are acting with utmost care and restraint.
bombing residential areas from the air = civilian deaths. always. i don't think it's that they don't care -- it's that there is little way around it. like i said, no win. however, i would like to continue my argument above, and give an example, from syria.
remember the denmark cartoon thing? denmark is currently making special arrangements to evacuate every single danish citizen from lebanon and syria (where most civilians ran to)... even and especially the arab ones. often, the very people who were rioting in the streets. you treat people like enemies, and they are. help them as one of your own, and they are. the war in the middle east will be won with compassion and compromise -- not rockets and bombs.
Rakes and torches only work against the Frankenstein monster I'm afraid...
they will find ways. you will not pacify them by taking away their toys. you will only enrage them.
It's my personal opinion that suicide attacks are a sign of weakness. Dying is easier than sucking up their pride and doing what it takes to stop the killing.
the killing isn't so much the problem. a lot of palestinians are frustrated with their relationship to israel. if israel made it better, the pool of available terrorists-in-training drops dramatically. in my opinion, it HAS to be israel, because palestine simply lacks the resources (which is the problem, really), and israel seems more ready to compromise. israel is also in the position of power, undeniable, and that powers paints them as oppressors to the palestinians
The brave martyrs are mostly foolish children who have been brainwashed into thinking that deliberately blowing up other children will get them into heaven.
yes. it works though.
You'll notice that the Palestinians seem unable to form a disciplined military...why learn how to march and do pushups when you can shoot your gun in the air and scream defiance at the enemy?
they know they will not beat israel marching in formation. sneaky tactics are the ONLY ones that do any damage. it's not like they have jets, either. so no air force.
Compare their antics to any of the successful guerrilla movements in history...the way I see it they're playing games. History may prove me wrong.
you mean like tossing a bunch of tea into boston harbor and screaming defiance at england? i suspect you're mostly right though.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typos


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Wepwawet, posted 07-20-2006 12:46 AM Wepwawet has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by anglagard, posted 07-20-2006 1:41 AM arachnophilia has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 284 of 301 (333606)
07-20-2006 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by arachnophilia
07-20-2006 1:17 AM


Actually Following the Teachings of Jesus?
personally, i feel the best argument is found in the new testament. love your enemy. they bomb you, you send them care packages and take care of their poor. suicide bombings? send the family of the terrorist condolences on their loss. ridiculous, i know -- but you will not win this battle killing civilians to fight terrorists. that just creates more terrorists.
Now that it has been advocated, I was wondering if anyone would actually support such a belief, or even if anyone is willing to try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2006 1:17 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 285 of 301 (333608)
07-20-2006 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Wepwawet
07-19-2006 7:31 PM


Re: oh, great
That's a very simplistic way of looking at a complex issue. Did they own the country when it was a British protectorate?
Try this
In describing the following encounter, Shabtai Teveth (one of Ben-Gurion's official biographers) briefly summarized Ben-Gurion's relations with the Palestinian Arabs, Teveth stated:
"Four days after the constituent meeting, on October 8, 1906, the ten members of the platform committee met in an Arab hostel in Ramleh. For THREE DAYS they sat on stools debating, and at night they slept on mats. An Arab boy brought them coffee in small cups. They left the hostel only to grab an occasional bite in the marketplace. On the first evening, they stole three hours to tour the marketplace of Ramleh and the ruins of the nearby fortress. Ben-Gurion remarked only on the buildings, ruins, and scenery. He gave no thought to the [Palestinian] Arabs, their problems, their social conditions, or their cultural life. Nor had he yet acquainted himself with the Jewish community in Palestine [which was mostly non-Zionist Orthodox Jews prior to 1920]. In all of Palestine there were [in 1906] 700,000 inhabitants, only 55,000 of whom were Jews, and only 550 of these were [Zionists] pioneers." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 9-10)
David Ben-Gurion-A Brief Biography & Quotes - Palestine Remembered
Kinda flies in the face of the Zionist recruiting slogan--'A land without people for a people without land'.
While this might be a Palestinian-slanted website, it is quoting an Israeli writer and historian, and, as the blurb says, an official biographer of David ben Gurion.
The rest of the page is worth exploring to see how attitudes changed

This message is a reply to:
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