Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?

How exactly? Where do you think ideology comes from? What do you think ideology is?

Did I miss something? Am I in bizarro world? So, if I am following you correctly you are saying that the left aren't the ones that have been sponsoring "Free Tibet" events and are speaking out against econimic relations with China until they clean up their human rights record? The left aren't the ones that have been crying foul over the atrocities in Sudan (and before that Congo and Rwanda and apartheid South Africa and concurrently the exploitation and corporate murder in Nigeria and the ever present famines all over Africa)? The left weren't the ones agitating against the Taliban for YEARS before they produced and harbored the 9/11 terrorists and their ilk (not that anyone had the foresight to see that specifically, but we knew of the severe oppression of women and the extremist mentality that went along with that and saw some danger) and against the sponsorship by the US of tyrannical regimes all over the Arab world and even in our own backyard (Chile, Nicaragua, etc)? The left (and the dreaded feminists) aren't the ones speaking out for women's rights all over the world?Oh, wait, I get it. You mean the Orwellian Left. Right is Left. War is Peace. Slavery is Freedom. Gotcha.

1. Palestine is for all practical purposes a nation and in fact the most aggressively troublesome neighbor to Israel.2. If war were to break out as in 1967, not one of Israel's neighbors would support Israel and all including Palestine and Jordan would be allied against Israel.3. In past wars, Russia and Turkey have been supportive to the Arab aggressors, Russia supplying their planes and tanks, et al.4. Bottom line: You have one teeny nation surrounded by hostile neighbors, in some cases 2 or three deep. North Africa is all pretty much hostile to Israel.Edited by Buzsaw, : Improve wording

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

And your evidence for that is? War with ????????What is your evidence that Jordan would be allied against Israel? And your point is? When was Turkey a supporter of Arab Aggressors? And your point is?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's not the bottom line by a country mile. I'd buy third from bottom at a pinch (not that I go around pinching bottoms you understand ).The second bottom line is blindingly obvious to anyone who has even passingly studied recent military conflicts, especially the two wars against Iraq.In modern warfare numbers don't count for squat if one side has significantly superior military technology. Guess what the current situation is - Israel has better tanks, planes, artillery, helicopters (attack and transport), sef-propelled guns, blah, blah, blah than any of the Arab countries or Iran.I don't mean just a bit better either - they are at least a generation ahead of anything likely to be deployed against them. Not only that, they have weapons that none of their potential adversaries even possess - specifically atomic weapons (long proven fact) and (probably but I'm not sure it's definitively proven yet) cruise missiles - including submarine launched ones.You remember the way the US military annihilated the Iraqi forces in 1991 and 2003? A conventional military attack on Israel would be like watching an action reply.In addition it has also long been suspected that Israel has been as active in chemical and biological weapons development as it has in nuclear. The surrounding states may have things like mustard gas and sarin but Israel can probably call upon stuff that's a lot worse.As I said, that's only the second bottom line...The real bottom line is that Israel has the unqualified support of the world's only hyper-power. As long as that is true nobody is going to destroy Israel. Until China or maybe a resurgent Russia reaches the economic and military level where they can at least force a stand-off with the US that's not going to change.Of course, even if either of them does gain parity there's no reason to think they would stop the US saving Israel if it needed it. To forestall you raising something based on your point 3: Past wars were during the Cold War era. Russia supplied planes and tanks to them because the Arab states were by and large Russia's clients or proxies in the region, just as the US had Israel and Iran (how times change!).

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Oops! Wrong Planet

Sure, it's always possible to impose one's own definition on your opponent and rid yourself of what they are trying to say that way. But what I was trying to say ought to have been easy enough to figure out.You were analyzing the situation on the basis of natural human feelings about poverty and oppression and so on, which you now go on to claim are the basis for ideology anyway -- and in one sense that is true enough, but not the sense I was talking in.I was answering that the situation is not defined by such feelings, but by "ideology" by which I mean an *artificial* -- NOT natural -- official explanation of the situation, something imposed on the situation. Marxism is an ideology in that sense, for instance, an artificial construct of what society should be, that when imposed on actual human beings, turns out to be a violation of every human impulse, a false theory about reality.Likewise with Islam, an ideology in a somewhat similar sense -- please do not make too much of the comparison, I'm only focusing on the artificiality of ideologies of the sort I'm talking about, not other possible similarities. So I was answering you that however the people might FEEL or be inclined to act if left to human nature, or whatever ideology in the sense you mean it they might have based purely on cultural factors, this is not the main cause of their actions vis a vis Israel.They are commanded by the god of Islam, who has supposedly given the Muslims a revelation that transcends the Bible, to treat Israel, the Jews, and Christians as well, as inferiors who should not be allowed to have any status whatever alongside a Muslim, and should be killed if they are not controllable. There are also statements in the Koran of leniency to these groups, but it all depends on the current political context which part of Islam is going to be taken seriously, and since Israel became a state the attitude that the Jews must go has been the driving perspective.The teaching that Israel should not exist, the maps that show an Israel-free Palestine, are not merely the expressions of an oppressed and unhappy people by a long shot, but ideology based on Islam. And in fact the misery of the Palestinian people is completely created by the ideology as their leaders, following Islam, will simply not agree to a Palestinian state, because their objective is to eliminate Israel from the earth, period. The Palestinians have been a pawn in this game played by the Arab states ever since Israel became a state.I'm sure you disagree with my view of the situation, but this is what I meant by "ideology" and it's a legitimate meaning of the word.

Can you provide in context quotes from the Qur'an that support that allegation? I think you have been asked to provide them in the past, but so far I have not seen any such support from you. If you have already provided them simply post the links to the specific messages.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not good at keeping track of old messages, unfortunately, but such information has been posted here many times by me and others. Canadian Steve for one has given quotes from the Koran and from Muslim commentators on the Koran showing how historically Islam's "fundamentalist" side has been interpreted to justify murder and aggression and subjugation of Christians and Jews over the centuries. You may not agree with the quotes or the sources but your not liking them has nothing to do with their having been supplied, many times. I'm busy with many things right now but if I can I will dig some up for you. I myself posted a long list of links a long time ago to such material. You could find it yourself easily enough.I was merely explaining how I use the term "ideology." I don't have time to get into the argument beyond that right now.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Faith, Marxism was influenced by the grinding poverty and the rigid class systems Marx saw in capitalist Western Europe during the 19th century!Ideology arises from human experience. Where else would it come from?Now, given that all ideologies represent: your ideas of "artficiality" seem somewhat arbitrary. Is Christianity a "natural" ideology?I ask because I can see you've already begun to skew this over into a critique of Islam. Perhaps your OWN form of Christian ideology drives you to do this...Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

The discussion of Jews and Christians in the Koran is a mixed bag. On the one hand, Jews and Christians are referred to as the "People of the Book" some 54 times. Jesus is referred to as "God's Messenger." On the other hand, the Koran says to not take them as friends, and Jews and Christians had a sort of second class citizenship in an Islamic state. Many details here:Your Catholic Voice - Dating Advice For Catholics Looking For Love

It's about as unnatural, contra-natural as you can get. It opposes all our natural inclinations, our self centeredness, envy, hatred, covetousness and so on. Nothing less natural than that. So call it an ideology in the sense I meant it if you like. I didn't just "begin." This has been my view of the situation all along and it's what I meant by "ideology" which I just explained to you. Islam is the cause of the whole Palestinian mess. Oh I'm sure without Islam there'd still be conflicts in the region, that's human nature, but islam is the cause of the majority and the intensity of it, in fact not only there but all over the Middle East and Asia where Muslims are daily persecuting Christians, there being no Jews to speak of in the neighborhood, most having fled to Israel. Perhaps. Christians do care a lot about truth. If I weren't a Christian I'd probably buy most of the propaganda you've bought.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yes, that is the point and it has been discussed and documented here many times before. The Quran speaks out of both sides of its mouth about Jews and Christians, and the history of Islam reflects this basic schizophrenia. Periods of relative peace with Christians and Jews have occurred between periods of persecution, murder, conquest and subjugation. This reflects the character of Mohammed, and periods in his own life, sometimes trying to bring Islam peaceably to the Jews and Christians, but turning to murderous force when they refused.

The real question under all of this is the question of whether Israel has a right to exist as a Nation and whether Palestine likewise has a right to exist as a Nation?These are tough questions, but they really go to the heart of the issue.What is the legal choice?What is the moral choice?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

A smart friend of mine made what sounded like a nutsy suggestion last week:Take the huge!!! amount of money (ignoring lives) that it is taking to support and defend Israel and use it to buy land elsewhere; perhaps half of Arizona or somesuch. Then just up and leave.As she says: "Don't love something that can't love you back." Stone and soil can't love you back so give it up to stop the killing of children on both sides.My reaction was to almost laugh but then I tried to think of what Plan B was if this isn't it. It seems all that anyone comes up with is more killing.

This isn't the topic of the OP (and, in fact, it isn't even relevant to the point of Faith's post), but I couldn't let this one pass:

quote:

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Marxism is an ideology in that sense, for instance, an artificial construct of what society should be, that when imposed on actual human beings, turns out to be a violation of every human impulse, a false theory about reality.

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This isn't quite correct. Marx was not a utopian, and in fact had little respect for utopian thinking. Marxism is not a construction of some sort of ideal society. It is a critique of capitalism. All Marxism basically consists of an thorough analysis of capitalism; not only the logical consequences of capitalist "theory", but the way capitalism actually works in the real world. In all of Marx's works (and the works of most subsequent socialists), you won't see any detailed plans of what a communist society will be. Rather, the people will find out what works and what doesn't by actually implementing policies and changing them as needed.Now, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline