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Author Topic:   "...except in the case of rape or incest."
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 301 (295213)
03-14-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tal
03-14-2006 10:55 AM


quote:
The real issue is killing an innocent life in the name of convenience, like the Nazis and the Jews, but with the US Government's approval.
So how do you propose we punish women who get abortions (and the people who perform them) if they become illegal?
Should we convict them of murder and execute them?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-14-2006 11:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 10:55 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 2:59 PM nator has replied
 Message 15 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:00 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 301 (295265)
03-14-2006 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tal
03-14-2006 2:59 PM


quote:
That is up to the legislature to decide, but second degree murder sounds good. It is the sentence Scott Peterson recieved for killing his unborn son.
That's going to be quite a few 9-26 year old girls and women convicted of second degree murder.
You interested in sending thousands of girls to prison?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 2:59 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:14 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 301 (295269)
03-14-2006 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tal
03-14-2006 3:09 PM


quote:
Hell, his wife was obviously an unwanted condition; and he should be able to kill his wife because, after all, I don't want to impose my beliefs and values on him.
What about people who take the "Morning After Pill"?
Should we convict them of murder if it can be determined that they housed within their bodies a fertilized egg?
Also, should we be collecting and searching the menstrual discharge of all female people, since most fertilized eggs never implant and are expelled to die?
What about IUD's? Since they prevent preganacy by preventing implantation, should we outlaw them?
I mean, Those fertilized eggs are life, right? Shouldn't we be doing all we can to save it?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-14-2006 03:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:09 PM Tal has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 301 (295273)
03-14-2006 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tal
03-14-2006 3:14 PM


So tell me tal, do you support the government providing free and easily-obtained birth control and extensive and explicit government-mandated sex education for all children and people, starting from an early age?
This is in order to prevent unwanted pregnancy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:14 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:33 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 23 of 301 (295275)
03-14-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tal
03-14-2006 3:14 PM


quote:
The difference between a partial-birth abortion and murder is 6 inches.
And the difference between shooting an enemy combatant and murdering someone with a gun is a piece of paper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:14 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:28 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 38 of 301 (295366)
03-14-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tal
03-14-2006 3:28 PM


quote:
The difference between a partial-birth abortion and murder is 6 inches.
And the difference between shooting an enemy combatant and murdering someone with a gun is a piece of paper.
quote:
Ooo you got me there!
lol
Really intelligent, well-argued rebuttal there, tal.
I take it you have none?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:28 PM Tal has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 53 of 301 (295508)
03-15-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by LudoRephaim
03-14-2006 11:16 PM


quote:
One way to settle the issue is to give the child in question to a couple wanting one when it is born and (here is the catch) make them pay up front in cash for the little tike!! Instead of losing money in an abortion, make money by giving the kid to a couple that will pay high dollar for it. You can make money this way. What could be more American than that?! Plus you wont have to live with the mental scarring of having an abortion. If this idea comes into major practice, abortions would plummet, the protests wouldn't be as large or as agressive as in the past, and you'll have more time to play Scrabble
The risk of death is 11 times higher for carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth than for having an abortion.
The risks increase if the girl is very young.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-14-2006 11:16 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 11:18 AM nator has replied
 Message 56 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 11:24 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 301 (295523)
03-15-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tal
03-14-2006 3:33 PM


quote:
You play you pay.
It is clear that many people are ignorant of exactly what "paying" means in connection with "playing".
It is also clear that you and other anti-leagal abortion folks hate and mistrust women, especially pregnant women.
quote:
I don't support the government doing anything relating to sex. That should be for the parents (competent parents anyway)to *gasp* teach their children about sex and its CONSEQUENCES.
Yeah, but many parents don't do that.
Let's say little Jenny's and little Tommy's respective parents don't teach them anything about sex. There is no sexual health education available to them in school, either. They are ill-informed, learning about sex from their friends and from movies and TV in a haphazard way, learning a mix of myth and truth.
Tommy gets Jenny pregnant even though they thought they were using birth control properly. Jenny decides to have an illegal abortion which is discovered, because there are surveillence cameras all over the place and the FBI has been watching this woman's health clinic for a while ever since abortion became illegal again.
Do you hold Jenny's and Tommy's parents liable for the "murder" of the pregnancy, because they failed to communicate the proper knowledge to their children?
quote:
Have an unwanted pregnance? Either keep the kid or give him/her up for adoption.
OK, one of your suggestions is to keep the kid.
Well, let's see, if the mother cannot aford it, are you going to pay for quality day care for the baby while the mother completes school and/or works in order to provide a good life for the child? Oh, wait, conservatives don't like day care because you believe day care damages children and that a parent should raise them. OK, so that means that you must be in favor of supporting the mother to stay home and take care of the child. Oh, hold on, THAT'S no good because that's welfare. Conservatives hate welfare even more than you hate daycare, so that's out.
I almost forgot to remind you that carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth and the recovery afterwards is no walk in the park for a woman's body. People still die from complications due to pregnancy. In fact, people die at a rate 11 times greater from preganacy and childbirth compared to having an abortion. That's not to mention the permenent physical damage that can be done short of death.
So, what's your solution, tal?
quote:
There are plenty of couples out there that can't have kids of their own that would jump at the chance of adopting.
Except that there are thousands of children right now who are waiting to be adopted and who never will be. They will bounce around from foster home to foster home until they "age out" of the system and are left to fend for themselves.
What kind of fantasy world do you live in?
quote:
The answer is definately not to scramble the kids brains and crush his skull.
The vast majority of abortions are done long, long before the fetus is anywhere close to being that developed, tal. They are done in the first trimester. D&X procedures are very rare.
Perhaps you should read some real statistics instead of getting them from biased wingnut websites.
quote:
Here's a theory: Don't have sex until marriage. I did it.
Er, do you think that married women don't get abortions?
Only 8% of women getting abortions used no contraception. 90% of women who have an unplanned pregnancy are using contraception.
quote:
I now have 2 wonderful children and good, solid family life.
One or both of those children are adopted, right? Because it would be hypocritical of you to suggest that people put their unwanted children up for adoption if you aren't going to volunteer to take at least one.
quote:
Who taught me about sex? My mother did when I was 8 years old. All the gory stuff too. It wasn't just jack and jill make a baby jack somehow. I guess that was her nursing and biology degrees coming into play. I didn't rely on the government to tell me how to make my decisions or what the consequences would be.
That's dandy for you.
My parents told me NOTHING about sex. Not a thing. Luckily, I had at least a decent bit of sex education in health class, but I learned from friends and from reading things myself.
It seems you want to encourage ignorance about sex within the population.
That is never a good thing.
Now, I notice that you overlooked some questions I had for you regarding your views on punitive measures against people who kill fertilized eggs or allow them to die. Please answer them
What about people who take the "Morning After Pill"?
Should we convict them of murder if it can be determined that they housed within their bodies a fertilized egg?
Also, should we be collecting and searching the menstrual discharge of all female people, since most fertilized eggs never implant and are expelled to die?
What about IUD's? Since they prevent preganacy by preventing implantation, should we outlaw them?
I mean, Those fertilized eggs are life, right? Shouldn't we be doing all we can to save it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tal, posted 03-14-2006 3:33 PM Tal has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 301 (295525)
03-15-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by LudoRephaim
03-15-2006 11:18 AM


quote:
going full term in pregnancy is 11 times more dangerous for the woman than an abortion? That does make some sense. Do you have a source for the info? I'm not saying "liar liar pants on fire" I would just want to read it. I love to read
Sure, it's
here
.
quote:
Be careful though. I can see where the argument where going if you where debating a hyper-pro lifer.
Schrafinator: Abortion is much safer for the woman than enduring a full term pregnancy.
Hyper Pro-lifer: Safe for the woman, but definitely not for the unborn child!
One thing leads to another....
Well, the answer I have for that is that it is clear that this particular anti-legalized abortion supporter considers the person who is pregnant to be not a person with rights, but a piece of meat with value only as an incubator for a fetus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 11:18 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-17-2006 12:16 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 301 (295527)
03-15-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by LudoRephaim
03-15-2006 11:24 AM


quote:
Do the risks increase if the mother-to-be is obese or morbidly obese?
Yes.
Why do you ask?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-15-2006 12:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 11:24 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 12:27 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 301 (295561)
03-15-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
03-15-2006 1:04 PM


quote:
How much would you put into his college fund? Would you play catch with him? Teach him to drive?
How many diapers would you change? Would you hold his head while he vomited? Would you pay for his prescriptions and check ups? Would you take care of the kid during the day (or arrange for child care) so his mom could go to work?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 03-15-2006 1:04 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 1:41 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 301 (295622)
03-15-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tal
03-15-2006 1:21 PM


a reply would be peachy
I'd like a reply to
this post, Tal, as it asks some questions that logically and practically proceed from your proposed punative measures against people surrounding illegal abortions.
And please, if you are not interested in addressing the issues and the points substantively and seriously, and instead are tempted to produce just a flippant one-liner in response as you so often do, just don't bother.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tal, posted 03-15-2006 1:21 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Chiroptera, posted 03-15-2006 4:15 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 126 of 301 (295713)
03-15-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by LudoRephaim
03-15-2006 6:03 PM


Re: Ringo's question
quote:
If this hypothetical pregnant woman/teenager got pregnant due to having unprotected sex without thinking of the consequences: We'll I wans't the one not using protection.
Only 8% of people getting abortions hadn't been using any protection at all.
90% were using some kind of contraception when they got pregnant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 6:03 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 10:01 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 128 of 301 (295718)
03-15-2006 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Murphy
03-15-2006 6:34 PM


Re: Varmit?
quote:
During my life I've touched the lives of literally thousands of young people, fathered 2 kids, grandfathered 2 and now am the great-grandfather of 1. Had she found and could afford an abortionist, all those who have been touched by my life would not.
Yeah, and if Hitler's mother had aborted him, 6 million Jews wouldn't have been killed.
By your logic, we should all be having as many children as we possibly can because of all of the good that might not be done by those people if we don't.
quote:
My understanding is a woman's mental problems are multiplied by an abortion.
Why is that your understanding?
Most surveys and data I've seen say that most women are greatly relieved after getting an abortion.
quote:
the egg is not a human until it is attached and starts the process of forming. I believe that is 'conception'.
The egg is fertilized and begins the process of cell division in the fallopian tubes, long before it reaches the uterus and (maybe) attaches to the wall.
Most people who believe "life begins at conception" are talking about the moment, pre implantation, when a sperm gets into the egg and cell division begins.
Lemme guess, you didn't have sex education in school, did you?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-15-2006 07:44 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Murphy, posted 03-15-2006 6:34 PM Murphy has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 147 of 301 (295844)
03-16-2006 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by LudoRephaim
03-15-2006 10:01 PM


Re: Ringo's question
quote:
So even if protection is used, there could be a risk (a HUGE one at that)Sounds like something hormonal teens need to take to mind.
Remember, the data didn't specify that the people were using the contraceptive properly or optimally, or how effective the particular method that each woman used was.
...which is why it is very important to have a national program in the public schools which teach all children from a very early age all about sexual health and making respectful and responsible sexual choices.
I think we should teach children that the 100% failsafe way to prevent all chance of pregnancy and STD is to abstain. BUT if one chooses to engage in sexual behavior, here are the risks, and here is how you mitigate them.
If the goal is to prevent unwanted pregnancy, giving people the information they need to make responsible choices for themselves is the best way to do it.
"Abstinence only" programs do not prevent kids from having sex before they are married. They delay it by a bout a year, and they make it MORE likely that the kids will have sex irresponsibly, without using contraception.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-16-2006 07:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 10:01 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

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