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Author
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Topic: "...except in the case of rape or incest."
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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LudoRephaim writes: Hmm, no pro choicer has replied yet. Umm... almost everybody on this thread is pro-choice.
Has the right-wing won this debate, or is this the calm before the storm? If you look at the OP, this debate is about the hypocrisy of the right wing. They claim that abortion is murder, yet it is "okay" in some way if the fetus is the result of rape or incest. They claim that the fetus is a person, yet it is "okay" in some way to kill it if it is the result of rape or incest.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 11:00 AM | | LudoRephaim has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 66 of 301 (295536)
03-15-2006 12:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by Silent H
03-15-2006 12:12 PM
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holmes writes: I'm not sure if this can be said to be "the hypocrisy of the right wing".... Fair enough. I used the term "right wing" because that was the term used in the post I replied to. (The term "hypocrisy" was admittedly intended to be loaded.  )
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by Silent H, posted 03-15-2006 12:12 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: It is lesser of two evils, not that it becomes OK. I agree with you. My point is that I have heard pro-lifers say, "Abortion is absolutely wrong, no matter what... except in the case of rape or incest." The attitude exists and it is at least inconsistent, if not hypocritical.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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LudoRephaim writes: I would help her out even after the baby was born. How much would you put into his college fund? Would you play catch with him? Teach him to drive?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 12:57 PM | | LudoRephaim has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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LudoRephaim writes: I would help in some ways, though not in everyway. The mother's responsibilities have no such convenient limits. My point is (and I hate to have to explain what my point is) that those who would deny the right to abortion ought to be willing to take complete responsibility for the unwanted children.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: You shouldn't put yourself in a position where the outcome could be out of the reach of your responsibility. Agreed.
If the outcome occurs, then you should take responsibility for the position you put yourself in. Agreed. But taking responsibility for the action can include abortion. If somebody stops you from taking responsibility in your own way, surely they should take responsibility for their actions too? It's an old Chinese concept - if you save somebody's life, you're responsible for them.
... if you knew that your method wasn't approved of in the first place. If you disapprove of the war, are you any less responsible for the soldiers that your country sends? I would say you are more responsible.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: When I said the method wasn't approved, I meant that it was illegal. Sorry. When you said "people who are morally opposed" I assumed that you meant moral disapproval. And I was not under the impression that abortion was illegal.
The people who supported that criminalization of abortion should not be resonsible for somebody elses mistake. So... whatever happened to the concept:
quote:
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
We're all responsible for each other. That's what society is all about.
I don't see how disapproving of it makes you more responsible for the soldiers nor how I am responsible for them in the first place. Sorry again. I'm Canadian. We take responsibility for our soldiers, just as if they were our own sons and daughters. I assumed that other countries were the same. Seems a propos to the abortion question to me.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: That whole quote is support for why abortion is bad. I'm not saying abortion is or isn't "bad". I'm saying we need to take responsibility for each other - especially if we are the reason that "other" exists. There is no difference between creating a life and saving a life , from that life's viewpoint.
Especially if you consider a fetus a person, at the least. Well, I don't, actually - at least as long as it can't survive outside a woman's body.
I guess I could see how you're using it to support taking care of someone elses kid because abortion is illegal. We're all responsible for the consequences of our laws. If you're responsible for bringing in a law, then you're especially responsible for dealing with the consequences.
... don't get all Jesusy on me just because I'm Catholic. I get all "Jesusy" with everybody. The principle is universal, whatever you call it and whatever you call yourself.
Its not like you believe any of that stuff anyway. You're pretty cynical for somebody with such lofty "morals". In fact, I do believe in taking care of my fellow humans. Whether the principle came from a god or from a fictional character, it's still a sound principle.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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I don't see why legality is relevant to responsibility. A woman can choose to take responsibility by aborting her fetus. If that possibility is removed, then whoever removed it must take on the responsibility. Suppose I throw an old couch into the garbage. You think it's too good to waste, so you "rescue" it and set it up on your front lawn. Your nighbours complain that it's an eyesore but you maintain, "Don't blame me. It's Ringo's couch." When you undid my decision, you absolved me of responsibility and took it on yourself.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Ringo's question
LudoRephaim writes: ... does anybody know the main reason why most abortions are preformed? I'm with Batman - I don't care. It's none of my business unless I'm the father - and then I'm a third wheel at best, after her and her doctor.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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LudoRephaim writes: Official: You da one who had unsafe sex! Your problem not mine. So... if somebody makes a mistake they're forever doomed.... No chance for redemption, forgiveness, salvation.... Yer on yer own. Nice philosophy.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: NO Forgiveness?
LudoRephaim writes: I was referring to government, not God, people, or myself. Weelll... in a democracy, the government is the people, including yourself. You are responsible for what your government does. The first responsibility of a government is to take care of its people, especially those who can't take care of themselves. If the government fails to do so, it is your responsibility as a citizen to step in and do it for them. And finally, it is your responsibility as a Christian to take care of "the least of these". Do you know what forgiveness is? When a loan is forgiven, do you still have to pay it back? If the mother is forgiven for accidentally getting pregnant, how can you still want to punish her with an unwanted pregnancy and motherhood?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: NO Forgiveness?
LudoRephaim writes: I am responsible for what my country does? That comes as a surprize to you?
I guess those germans today are responsible for his crimes. Well, the ones back then were, yes - unless Hitler pulled six million triggers all by himself. The Germans of today, no. The sins of the fathers are not visited on them.
... if we are talking government here, then they could increase our taxes a bit to aid those who are with a kid they can't support. Do we see the pro-lifers advocating higher taxes to support single mothers?
... i'm not going to help them do an abortion. Psst... They're probably not going to ask you to.
The woman isn't accidentaly forgiven for being pregnant.... What exactly is "accidental forgiveness"?
Why would you want a girl/woman to get rid of her kid ie abortion and pretend it didn't happen? Why not belly up and take responsibility? Umm... that's what I've been saying. But taking responsibility isn't limited to you dictating what she should do. You (not just the father) need to take responsibility no matter what.
I see an unborn VARMIT as a child, based on religious beliefs.... I'm really uncomfortable with calling a child a "varmint" - unborn or not.
... you see the unborn as something not fully human.... I'm with brennakimi on that - I don't see 18-year-olds as "fully" human either. We (hopefully) become more human as we mature. Part of becoming human is taking responsibility for our fellow humans.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: NO Forgiveness?
LudoRephaim writes: Sexual Immorality (I.e fornication) which can lead to Pregnancy, IS a sin, and just like any sin, it can be forgiven. No need to get all knotted up about "sin". For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This discussion isn't about sin.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 137 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 10:36 PM | | LudoRephaim has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 141 by NosyNed, posted 03-15-2006 11:15 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Remember the OP?
As NosyNed had suggested, how about responding to the OP?
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