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Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: "...except in the case of rape or incest." | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So how do you propose we punish women who get abortions (and the people who perform them) if they become illegal? Should we convict them of murder and execute them? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-14-2006 11:55 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's going to be quite a few 9-26 year old girls and women convicted of second degree murder. You interested in sending thousands of girls to prison?
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What about people who take the "Morning After Pill"? Should we convict them of murder if it can be determined that they housed within their bodies a fertilized egg? Also, should we be collecting and searching the menstrual discharge of all female people, since most fertilized eggs never implant and are expelled to die? What about IUD's? Since they prevent preganacy by preventing implantation, should we outlaw them? I mean, Those fertilized eggs are life, right? Shouldn't we be doing all we can to save it? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-14-2006 03:18 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So tell me tal, do you support the government providing free and easily-obtained birth control and extensive and explicit government-mandated sex education for all children and people, starting from an early age?
This is in order to prevent unwanted pregnancy.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: And the difference between shooting an enemy combatant and murdering someone with a gun is a piece of paper.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: And the difference between shooting an enemy combatant and murdering someone with a gun is a piece of paper. quote: Really intelligent, well-argued rebuttal there, tal. I take it you have none?
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The risk of death is 11 times higher for carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth than for having an abortion. The risks increase if the girl is very young.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It is clear that many people are ignorant of exactly what "paying" means in connection with "playing". It is also clear that you and other anti-leagal abortion folks hate and mistrust women, especially pregnant women.
quote: Yeah, but many parents don't do that. Let's say little Jenny's and little Tommy's respective parents don't teach them anything about sex. There is no sexual health education available to them in school, either. They are ill-informed, learning about sex from their friends and from movies and TV in a haphazard way, learning a mix of myth and truth. Tommy gets Jenny pregnant even though they thought they were using birth control properly. Jenny decides to have an illegal abortion which is discovered, because there are surveillence cameras all over the place and the FBI has been watching this woman's health clinic for a while ever since abortion became illegal again. Do you hold Jenny's and Tommy's parents liable for the "murder" of the pregnancy, because they failed to communicate the proper knowledge to their children?
quote: OK, one of your suggestions is to keep the kid. Well, let's see, if the mother cannot aford it, are you going to pay for quality day care for the baby while the mother completes school and/or works in order to provide a good life for the child? Oh, wait, conservatives don't like day care because you believe day care damages children and that a parent should raise them. OK, so that means that you must be in favor of supporting the mother to stay home and take care of the child. Oh, hold on, THAT'S no good because that's welfare. Conservatives hate welfare even more than you hate daycare, so that's out. I almost forgot to remind you that carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth and the recovery afterwards is no walk in the park for a woman's body. People still die from complications due to pregnancy. In fact, people die at a rate 11 times greater from preganacy and childbirth compared to having an abortion. That's not to mention the permenent physical damage that can be done short of death. So, what's your solution, tal?
quote: Except that there are thousands of children right now who are waiting to be adopted and who never will be. They will bounce around from foster home to foster home until they "age out" of the system and are left to fend for themselves. What kind of fantasy world do you live in?
quote: The vast majority of abortions are done long, long before the fetus is anywhere close to being that developed, tal. They are done in the first trimester. D&X procedures are very rare. Perhaps you should read some real statistics instead of getting them from biased wingnut websites.
quote: Er, do you think that married women don't get abortions? Only 8% of women getting abortions used no contraception. 90% of women who have an unplanned pregnancy are using contraception.
quote: One or both of those children are adopted, right? Because it would be hypocritical of you to suggest that people put their unwanted children up for adoption if you aren't going to volunteer to take at least one.
quote: That's dandy for you. My parents told me NOTHING about sex. Not a thing. Luckily, I had at least a decent bit of sex education in health class, but I learned from friends and from reading things myself. It seems you want to encourage ignorance about sex within the population. That is never a good thing. Now, I notice that you overlooked some questions I had for you regarding your views on punitive measures against people who kill fertilized eggs or allow them to die. Please answer them
What about people who take the "Morning After Pill"?
Should we convict them of murder if it can be determined that they housed within their bodies a fertilized egg? Also, should we be collecting and searching the menstrual discharge of all female people, since most fertilized eggs never implant and are expelled to die? What about IUD's? Since they prevent preganacy by preventing implantation, should we outlaw them? I mean, Those fertilized eggs are life, right? Shouldn't we be doing all we can to save it?
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure, it's here. quote: Well, the answer I have for that is that it is clear that this particular anti-legalized abortion supporter considers the person who is pregnant to be not a person with rights, but a piece of meat with value only as an incubator for a fetus.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes. Why do you ask? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-15-2006 12:10 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: How many diapers would you change? Would you hold his head while he vomited? Would you pay for his prescriptions and check ups? Would you take care of the kid during the day (or arrange for child care) so his mom could go to work?
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I'd like a reply to
this post, Tal, as it asks some questions that logically and practically proceed from your proposed punative measures against people surrounding illegal abortions. And please, if you are not interested in addressing the issues and the points substantively and seriously, and instead are tempted to produce just a flippant one-liner in response as you so often do, just don't bother.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Only 8% of people getting abortions hadn't been using any protection at all. 90% were using some kind of contraception when they got pregnant.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yeah, and if Hitler's mother had aborted him, 6 million Jews wouldn't have been killed. By your logic, we should all be having as many children as we possibly can because of all of the good that might not be done by those people if we don't.
quote: Why is that your understanding? Most surveys and data I've seen say that most women are greatly relieved after getting an abortion.
quote: The egg is fertilized and begins the process of cell division in the fallopian tubes, long before it reaches the uterus and (maybe) attaches to the wall. Most people who believe "life begins at conception" are talking about the moment, pre implantation, when a sperm gets into the egg and cell division begins. Lemme guess, you didn't have sex education in school, did you? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-15-2006 07:44 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Remember, the data didn't specify that the people were using the contraceptive properly or optimally, or how effective the particular method that each woman used was. ...which is why it is very important to have a national program in the public schools which teach all children from a very early age all about sexual health and making respectful and responsible sexual choices. I think we should teach children that the 100% failsafe way to prevent all chance of pregnancy and STD is to abstain. BUT if one chooses to engage in sexual behavior, here are the risks, and here is how you mitigate them. If the goal is to prevent unwanted pregnancy, giving people the information they need to make responsible choices for themselves is the best way to do it. "Abstinence only" programs do not prevent kids from having sex before they are married. They delay it by a bout a year, and they make it MORE likely that the kids will have sex irresponsibly, without using contraception. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-16-2006 07:39 AM
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