Did Jesus exist, Part II

I have to stay away for a while, but drat it's tempting to answer things.I don't know what Lyell Watson's argument is, but I'd doubt he's making the case that if a person is certifiably dead from massive bleeding hanging on the cross, and then pierced through the heart with a spear, as Jesus was, that he simply stayed alive at some subclinical level for three days. Clues that Jesus was certifiably dead were that they didn't break his knees to speed up the process of dying, as they normally did when it looked as though someone was going to linger half alive into a holiday weekend (it was the Passover). They had pierced him through his side and into his heart to prove him already dead. The separated water and blood that poured out of his side was proof he was definitely dead. And if he hadn't been, the piercing itself would have done the job.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-12-2006 04:00 PM

If necessary I'll use the qualifiers, Totally Bible-believing Protestant, with affinities to the Church Fathers -- or whatever would make the portrait as clear as you need it to be.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-12-2006 04:02 PM

He was no longer a Pharisee (in a certain sense) when he became a follower of Christ.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-12-2006 04:39 PM

But that is to accept the assumptions of the eastern tradition. Separate existence is not a delusion and that's why our language asserts its reality. Again, this is to accept the assumptions of the eastern tradition, but the eastern tradition is wrong. The object is not an illusion. The object is real. It may certainly be that we have many false ideas about the object, but when it comes to God He is kind to our frailties and makes room for our honest efforts to know him in spite of our confused minds. I honestly think this is some kind of mind game that is ultimately corrupting. Reality is reality. The Fall happened. Jesus' redemption is a reality. God is real. Recipe for insanity, IMHO.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-12-2006 11:41 PM

I'm sorry, sometimes I have to make a judgment call as to whether it is worth it to pursue links or even a conversation with someone on a busy thread. I tend to avoid people who are often rude for one thing.The Essenes had no influence whatever on Jesus or on John the Baptist. The "evidence" is strictly conjectural. They were a sect unto themselves. As Jesus taught, Judaism, which was the religion of the Pharisees, and still is today, was not true Old Testament religion. It had become a man-made tradition that had lost the spirit of God's revelation. So no, Judaism didn't have a "hold" on Jesus, as it was a corruption of the Old Testament, and still is. Jesus denounced it, Jesus condemned it. So those who believed in Jesus were saved, as all the law and the prophets pointed to Him, but those who didn't went on in Judaism.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 01:21 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 01:34 AM

Try spelling his name Eckhart.http://members.wwisp.com/...nks/Meister_Eckhart/Sayings.htmlhttp://members.aol.com/heraklit1/eckhart.htm It's not that unusual an idea in Christian mysticism in general. Eckhart is generally regarded as having fallen into heresy however.The Eastern Orthodox tradition of The Philokalia has similar teachings to what you are describing as I recall:CyberDesert - Philokalia WebzineWhat comes to mind as a non-heretical Western Christian meditative approach to God beyond names is The Cloud of Unknowing: Anonymous: Cloud of Unknowing - Christian Classics Ethereal Library But none of this suggests any of the idea that language needs to be transcended that seems to be the main thing in the eastern religions. It is simply that God is above and beyond all our ability to comprehend and it is possible to seek Him beyond all that.As a matter of fact the more "mainstream" mystics have a similar idea. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul is precisely about finding God in the "darkness" by which he means the meditative state when all the impressions of the senses and thoughts have been subdued. His metaphor is often misused to suggest a sense of suffering but that's not at all what he meant by it -- he meant that God is known beyond the senses. "When the house is at rest" is part of his poem, and it means roughly "when the senses are quieted and no longer interfere with the soul's ascent to God." Author info: St. John of the Cross - Christian Classics Ethereal Library {abe: It certainly DOES matter if Jesus exists, and God exists. In pursuing God through the Via Negativa, which is the elimination of the impressions of the senses and concepts in order to find God beyond them, all one is doing is affirming that He is beyond our normal methods of knowing. There is certainly no implication that what we DO know about God or anything else by these methods is in any way an illusion, and in fact to dismiss it as an illusion or as unnecessary knowledge in itself, is definitely to court dangerous heresy and get yourself way out in what really IS delusion.}{abe: Edited to remove Hildegard of Bingen, since, although she's very popular with liberals and feminists, she really isn't an example of what you are talking about. If you're interested you can always google her}This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 11:09 AM

I don't see this observation of the everchanging aspect of things as having anything to do with the reality of God. He alone is unchanging. But that doesn't mean our apprehensions in general are in any way delusional or that God is an illusion. I don't think I get what you are trying to say though.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 03:20 AM

The Essenes were a sect of Jewish religion, so to find some similarities between them and any other teacher of Jewish religion would only be expected. But they go off in philosophical directions John the Baptist and Jesus did not, although I don't remember all that much about them so this is just an impression from previous reading. They were out there doing their own thing, and they had some right ideas, why not? None of that shows any link between them and anyone in the New Testament. If you want to find similarities, John the Baptist has a lot in common with the Old Testament prophets, especially Elijah. He's a lot closer to him than to the Essenes.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 03:34 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 03:36 AM

Of course not. His manner of dress and the things he ate make him similar to Elijah. He was a follower of the God of the Old Testament. Directly guided by Him. A loner in the desert. As Elijah was. There is no supporting evidence. You admit it's conjectural and it is. If he had been part of that group I'd expect it to have been mentioned in the gospels but it isn't. I guess I can read up on their views again but there really is no need. He is a follower of the Old Testament and not some sect.

Why are you pushing this pray tell? Yes, I'd liken John the B to Elijah over the Essenes, yes I would. Jesus also does so.The Qumran texts are great evidence that our Old Testament nicely weathered the rigors of a couple millennia of copying and translation. Otherwise they are evidence of a community that once lived in the area. They aren't evidence of any connection with John the B or Jesus however.

Another spelling is Eckhardt. 404 Not Found (It's one of those syncretistic/heretical sites. But Eckhardt is considered to be a heretic)This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 11:44 AM

I don't think it was his seeking of egolessness that makes him a heretic.But it is true that Christianity preserves the self, and will for eternity. We will always know who we are, we will always recognize one another as individual personalities. But not the ego, if what is meant by that is pride.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 01:20 PM

WHAT I am may not be a whole lot like what I will be, and one thing that will be different will be loving others more than myself, which I can hardly say is the case now. But many other things will also be different, in ways I'm sure none of us could possibly imagine. It may be that what is to come will be so wonderful that I will no longer care about anything I experienced in this life, but I rather hope that we will be allowed to review the entire unfolding of human history in detail. I have no doubt that this is possible, and I kind of think we might get to. The wonderful thing about God is that He appreciates the human nature He made and has every desire of fulfilling that human nature. None of this cold stuff about atoms and the dissolution of self.I may do a little research into Eckhart, but I believe his heresy has to do with rejection of some key tenets of the faith, rather than his meditative practices as such. If I find anything I'll let you know.{abe: Here's a site that discusses the papal bull on Eckhart's heresies, to condemn the bull. It would take quite a bit of thought but some of it looks to me like a fair judgment of heresy, and some I'm not sure about.The Papal Condemnation of Meister Eckhart - Page 1This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 02:23 PM

Thanks for the link.You are quite right. They have the silliest ideas about how the Bible must have been changed over the centuries for instance, knowing nothing about scholarship in that area. I don't know much but enough to see their errors and muster some evidence against them.But while I see the reasoning of historians about the futility of answering these silly charges, as those who believe them are irrational and will not have their minds changed, there are many others who need to hear that there is another point of view or the irrationalists will prevail. That leaves it up to us nonhistorians to do what we can with the problem. Especially if they are believing Christians they should consider it a calling to be out arguing their case at places like EvC.

The Westar Institute scholars are in religion and related fields, not history and historiography.The Jesus Seminar is a pathetic joke.