Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed

And then Paul popped in and succeeded in splitting the Nazarite movement

How'd he do that then cobber?

quote:

---

Even welfare is supposed to be a form of insurance, though it's abused a lot.

---

Is it?

quote:

---

The community of faith, also known as the household of God, is supposed to be that way. If I die or am disabled, I know that my family will be taken care of. My friends, together, can bear the loss of my income, whereas my family would not be able to do that on their own. My friends can replace me as father to my children, and while they are not free to replace certain roles I play as husband, they most certainly can provide for the safety, comfort, and emotional security of my wife. (As Ms. Clinton said, it takes a village to raise a child.)

---

But none of this neccessarily has anything to do with faith.

But it is the directives of Christ.Loving one another, and all he mentioned etc.. is directly relevant to the specific Christ-faith if it fulfills the requirements of Christ's commands.It's important to note that if all of the composite group are [Christian], which in this case I suppose they are, and all are willing to obey the commands of the peaceable Christ, then all the conditions lead to success, as claimed by Truthlover.I'm aware that the irritation to none-believers, will be if the claim is that no Christian is imperfect. I think that's not what TL is trying to say though.I think NWR's point is valid though; this could be stifling. What if you don't enjoy close-knit groupings? Is there evidence that simply being tolerant and reasonable with one another, wouldn't result in the same findings?

If that is the promise, then no one has any way of knowing whether it is a failure.The fact is, the promise was that Y'shua's disciples would love one another with a love significant enough to prove they were his disciples (Jn 13), that they would have a unity that would cause at least some people to believe that the Fathers sent the Son (Jn 17), and that his disciples would bear much fruit (Jn 15). Those are just examples. There are also promises that sin wouldn't have power over disciples (Rom 6:14) and that they would all be growing in faith (Php 1:6).Since finding those things is as rare as still finding gold nuggets in the Sierra Nevada foothills, despite hundreds of thousands of churches, I think the failure of Christianity is obvious.It also makes a claim that it is sending people to heaven quite dubious. Well, since I hear people saying it, I don't think it's too idealistic or unrealistic. The road that leads to life is cramped, and the gate is narrow. Few there be that find it.The Faith has never claimed it will convert the whole world. So you don't believe the teachings of Christ. You're not the only one. I do believe them, however, and I really wish that people who don't would admit they're not Christians and not believers in Christ, because people like you are the reason it's broke.

I don't know if it can be adopted by an entire nation, but I don't think it will be. Christ himself said there would be few that found the way to life, so I don't think he ever expected to convert nations.I am not suggesting community necessarily, either. Maybe the church was always meant to be a community. It was certainly meant (and commanded) to be one heart, one mind, one soul, and intent on one purpose. However, I'm not sure that requires community, even though that's what happened to us here in Tennessee.I am suggesting that when Jesus (Y'shua) is believed and followed, that the Faith produces the things it promises it will produce, holiness, unity, love, happiness. It produces it so well and so powerfully, that it's very difficult for anyone to speak against it.

I agree with this. I don't think the faith of Christ promises no problems and zero people falling away.I do think it promises that grace will transform a person, and that the Spirit of Christ will come and create a loving, unified, and holy people out of his disciples.I do not thing Christianity today is producing such a grace, nor such a people, and my premise is that the real faith is capable of producing such grace and people and has a history of doing so.You can't fix something if you can't admit it's broken. Proven by history to be absolutely true. So that's one quite obvious thing that would have to be fixed wherever it's the case.

We come from a lot of different backgrounds, those of us who are getting together here. I have to admit, I do not understand why you are asking this question, so I wonder if I even understand the question. So if my answer is way off the mark, I suspect we have different enough ways of thinking that I'm just not following where you're going. A little effort may get us on the same page.I'm talking about fixing Christianity so that it produces what it promises to produce. Most of us have an idea what that is. I'm trying not to get too specific, because we might argue about details, that I think miss the point. We all would agree that Christ promised to produce a community of love that took care of one another, did good, helped the poor, etc.Everyone, except some really annoying and obnoxious types of Christians, agrees that Mother Theresa was an awesome Christian. If everyone who believed in Christ turned out like Mother Theresa, then everyone would have to agree that Christ had immense power to transform people.I don't believe everyone is supposed to turn out just like Mother Theresa. But I do believe that Christ claimed that he would send his Spirit to anyone who believed in him, and that person would change for the better--everyone across the board. He also said that he would unite them into a people for himself, and the love of those people would be noticeable and would affect the people around them.That is not happening except in the rarest of instances. Therefore, Christianity looks powerless, and possibly even evil. It's therefore either not the real faith, or it's some broken version of it, and I'm arguing that the real faith has produced and can still produce all I've described above.

Is Welfare supposed to be a form of insurance, or is it abused a lot? I couldn't tell which one you were asking.

This was like a chess problem for me. I literally did not have a clue why you said this or what you were talking about. But after a bit, I think I follow.You're saying that the things I described (the larger group bearing the problems of the individual, etc.) can happen without faith. Is that your point?If it is, I'll grant you that, and I'll grant you that it's happened repeatedly, though it's becoming rarer all the time.My point is that the faith of Christ is supposed to produce that sort of life, and it's supposed to produce the sort of people who will live that sort of life, and that almost everyone who sees it admits it's good. Christianity is not producing it now, but that's not because the faith of Christ lacks the power to produce that sort of people.That's my point, and if that life can happen outside of faith, that's fine. I don't see that as negating my point.I have some thoughts on why it's just as rare, and becoming impossible, among the non-religious as it is in Christianity, but that'll have to be for another thread, because that's a complicated and emotional type discussion.

quote:

---

Is Welfare supposed to be a form of insurance, or is it abused a lot? I couldn't tell which one you were asking.

---

Sorry.Is it abused a lot?

Are you basing MT being a Christian on her actions, Truthlover? What makes you think that is not happening? It is going to happen down at individual level in the first instance. And you can only really notice the change in individual who is close to you and who you knew pre/post conversion. Unless your very fortunate, it won't be that many people you can observe this ofThen it moves up to small group level, say local church. I don't know about your church but ours is very active in the community on practical levels. But again, you wouldn't know of it..Then it moves up a scale: Samaritans Purse's operation Christmas Child will send millions upon millions of gifts to kids around the world this Christmas. There are many, many other Christian agencies putting their money and sweat (in practical sense) where their faith is. Bucket loads of themI don't understand this "Christianity is broken slant". What would have to happen for you to think it fixed? Apart from the early years of the church (ie: the epicentre of the explosion of Christianity which, like any explosion, could be expected to be a little more concentrated then) when has Chrisitanity been fundimentally (oops) any different to now. You want to get out more There are Christian rallies in Africa which attract 10's of 1000's of people. If you can ignore the "poor little vunerable Africans being taken advantage of by the nasty Christians" slight, you'll see Christianity is, world wide, is very much alive and well

When I was doing it, it was. In Ireland at any rate. False claiming of unemployment benefit was rampant: students, motorcycles couriers and building trade being particularily noticeable. Because I was one of each of these at various stages and was false claiming myself, I could spot my fellow false-claimers quite easily: the dried concrete on the boot with the steel toe-cap poking through the leather was a dead giveaway.I imagine its the same in the States. If it's possible to rip off (and it's never THAT hard) then there will be a queue out the door to do it. It's 'free' money Shraf: what do you expect?Don't believe me? Put on a civil-servant type suit, stroll onto a building site in an area which doesn't have much chance of having many illegal immigrants on it. Take out a camera and start pointing at folk. Insta-ghosttown

You've been describing a lot of my views in this thread.I agree with this post I am responding to. My only slight disagreement is the "real faith" claim.There might be a real formula that works. And yes, I agree that that formula comes via Christ. But since you are sincerely ONLY claiming the formula works, I don't think we have a problem.But what then does this say about life on earth? Are we supposed to, in your view, try our best to believe in Christ, or is it basically down to ourselves to get on with it if Christ knew so many would fall short and not follow?I assume that like me, you don't believe that hell is simply for none-believers. So then logically, do we assume that Christ's actions on the cross were to mainly give people eternal life, in that; he foreknew few would find the straight and narrow? I suppose I am positing that infact the way of life, although an excellent find (certainly for me), is infact a rare treasure, which to Christ, is not as important as actually paying for sin.I respect your opinions on these slightly off-topic questions, as it strikes me that I wouldn't come to any other believer here in town, for such logical answers. Answer if you can, and take your time, as this forum is second best to your treasure.