Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed

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and I've met enough of them to think it's way too common.

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Ouch.That's some sloppy thinking, there, truthlover.

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even though Jesus said that His kingdom was NOT of this world

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Actually, Jesus repeately states that his kingdom is most certainly of this world. At least, that's what a straight reading of Matthew, Mark, and Luke depict; that the second coming would be very soon and he would be a big military hero, leading his people to victory over their current oppressors and enemies.It isn't until Mark, which was written quite a few generations after Jesus's death and is clearly a very different gospel to the others, that folks started to figure out that Jesus probably wasn't actually coming back anytime soon, so they started to tweak the story to make it more symbolic and stress the "spiritual kingdom" rather than a literal one.

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Imo, the best way to judge as to how Christianity is doing is to observe nations of the planet. Which of the nations would you want to live, work, prosper and worship freely in?

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SwedenIt's better than the US in many aspects.

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For the past two centuries, largely Protestant USA has been the place most want to come to. Come from where? From nations which have not, for the most part had the percentage of Biblical fundamentalist Christians as the good ole US of A has.

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Buz, have you ever actually done any traveling? I have. Have you ever actually ever been to Europe? I have. Do you have any European friends or aquaintences that you have spoken to about this? I have.What you are ignorant of regarding this issue, and what you refuse to be corrected on regarding this issue by people who know far better than you about the subject, is a lot.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-17-2005 07:05 AM

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A slightly wild assertion mike. Its credentials historicity-wise appear to be excellent compared to some of the history we take for granted.

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There are many Bible threads in which you can provide your verification for the historical accuracy of the Bible, so I suggest that you take them there.So far, nobody claiming that the Bible is historically accurate to any great degree has been able to support their assertions, so maybe you will be the first.

Mike claimed (first) that the bible is historically inaccurate. Will he be invited to take his claims to the appropriate thread too. Or is the presumption that the Bible-is-inaccurate-until-proved-otherwise, the AdminSchraf stance? If so and with respect, could AdminSchraf, in the appropriate place, inform me as to how this stance was arrived at?This message has been edited by iano, 17-Nov-2005 12:32 PM

Maybe if I was writing a thesis on the reform of our welfare system, it would be sloppy thinking, and a lot more research would be required. But I'm not. I simply made a comment, based on a small personal poll. Such polls produce a margin of error. Since my poll is limited to Arkansas, Tennessee, and parts of California, it is not applicable outside those areas. But in those areas, it's certainly valid enough to comment that abuse happens a lot.This is way off topic, anyway, although we're adding few enough posts that I haven't resisted commenting on this in order to talk with you.

I wouldn't address "the individual Christian (and by extension the church)." I've answered this question already, so I'll just paste it in from earlier:

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That it cease to be a horrible embarrassment. That it become more known for its unity than its division. That its nominal membership become less than the majority. That Barna's statistics would show that Christians are significantly different from non-Christians on issue that are supposedly significant to Christians, such as divorce, abortion, and teen pregnancy.

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It is trying to comment on the individual that causes someone to say, "Hey, 10% of the people who jump out of airplanes from 10,000 feet or more land safely due to our parachutes," and ignore the 90% who crash to their death.

Jesus, lambs, bulls, doves

I guess it's easier to do that in answer to your question that followed: No. I was trying to say the goal's a little wider and less defined than that, but that achieving the goal would be recognizable to most people. Christianity is supposed to be known for love. The goal would be that Christian congregations are known for love, unity, and doing good.However, I am also suggesting that when the Faith is believed and practiced it produces love, unity, and doing good so well that those who encounter it marvel, and that "this is way it ought to be" or "that's the way people ought to live" becomes a typical comment. Or, going back to Tertullian, that their love is powerful enough to inspire the comment, "Would you look at how the love one another!"

On a personal note, I would agree that America is a GREAT country, compared to current and historical countries. Lots of problems, but GREAT. I would also concur that our Judeo-Christian heritage has a lot to do with that (though it has a lot to do with the problems as well, being a source and instigator of intolerance and persecution).However, that's irrelevant to my OP, in my opinion. Jesus did not promise to produce a good nation with a lot of freedom for its citizens. Jesus promised to produce disciples that were known by their love and who proved his power by their unity. He promised that every branch in him (every one) would bear much fruit and receive everything they asked from him.That is not happening. In fact, no one is more noted for division and bigotry than Christians.

This is why I believe that a Second Coming of Christ, a general falling away of a majority of people, and many many wars and rumors of wars will literally happen in the near future (as they already have done)That being said, I don't believe that people should sell everything and give the proceeds to the church. That trick was tried at the year 1000 a.d.TL has an approach to Christianity that is necessary for him and his family. He is, as I say, a sort of a protestant Monk. For those of us who think that the modern world is not evil, I still believe that we are called out of it in a spiritual sense. Not a religious, uppity, holier than thou attitude so much as a behavior and a lifestyle that are honorable and show a good example to those younger who seek answers to human behavior.Christianity works best when those of us who call ourselves Christian are humble enough to realize that we are no better than anyone regardless of the behavior....but that we have an impartation to change our behavior (or allow it to be changed) through Holy Communion, prayer, and fellowship.

The church is the body of believers. Christians - irrespective of their (man-made) denomination or whether they are of any denomination. A Christian, you may agree, is somebody made so by God. Now there appears to be, in the States as in Ireland, a large amount of people who profess to be Christians. The question one must ask is: are they in fact Christians? Patently a Christian is not simply one who calls themselves such.Do these Barna statistics take account of that or do they simply ask people "what are you" and if the answer is 'Christian' proceed to plough the data in under the category "What Christians think about x,y,z"? If the latter, I would suggest the stats are not worth the paper they are written on, nor can any view about the state of the church be derived from them. This on the basis of rubbish in/rubbish out.Same for the likes of Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jesse du Plant, the Pope and other apparent representitives of THE CHURCH. Basic question: are they in fact church members or simply self-styled Christians who consider themselves members of the church?This message has been edited by iano, 17-Nov-2005 03:49 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 17-Nov-2005 03:54 PM

What about the pruning that God carries out TL? That pruning must take place spiritually (as well as horticulturally) indicates that a process is set in motion. What is pruned is that which bears no fruit. Thus we can expect, at any particular moment fruit/no fruit in each person. And since the body is made up of many people we have no reason to expect any different there either. As with above: is that the Christians or the people who call themselves Christians but who aren't?

truthlover I am trying to come to grips with the idea you have that these people you describe are somehow different from people outside them.How is it that you consider their lifestyle and character to be somehow superior to any others? You say recognizably wonderful but you do not explain what this means.What has being a follower of christ to do with the attainment of happiness or of care for others or of anything different from the average guy on the street?Perhaps I am dense and uncultured but this smacks highly of arrogance and elitism.This message has been edited by sidelined, Thu, 2005-11-17 09:38 AM