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Author Topic:   Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 1 of 247 (259915)
11-15-2005 10:39 AM


I'd like to put this in debate topic form, because I have a "resolution" for folks to be for or against:
Resolved: that
1.) Christianity as it is known today is a failure and does not produce what it promises
2.) "The Faith," is it was once known, has not always been a failure, and once produced what it promised
3.) If the problems are corrected, "The Faith" is capable of producing a lifestyle that is recognizable by most people as "the way it ought to be."
There may be a better way to word point 3, but I'm actually quoting words we have heard repeatedly.
Faith & Belief forum, I assume.
I thought I'd leave my defense of this resolution to the body of the thread.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2005 5:33 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 31 by sidelined, posted 11-16-2005 10:48 AM truthlover has replied
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AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 247 (259925)
11-15-2005 11:14 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 247 (259929)
11-15-2005 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
11-15-2005 10:39 AM


Will you be discussing Christianity INC?
Will you be talking about the major for profit company totally shielded from taxes, accountability or supervision?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 11-15-2005 10:39 AM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 4 of 247 (259963)
11-15-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
11-15-2005 11:41 AM


Jar writes:
Will you be discussing Christianity INC? Will you be talking about the major for profit company totally shielded from taxes, accountability or supervision?
Er....ain't you forgetting someone Jar. Three letter word beginning with G
This message has been edited by iano, 15-Nov-2005 06:33 PM

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 5 of 247 (259970)
11-15-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
11-15-2005 10:39 AM


Two questions
(1) If we were to return to "the way it ought to be," would that result in a return of the dark ages?
(2) Will a culture that lives according to "the way it ought to be" go extinct in the face of the natural selection of cultures?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 11-15-2005 10:39 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by truthlover, posted 11-15-2005 2:47 PM nwr has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 6 of 247 (259980)
11-15-2005 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
11-15-2005 1:56 PM


Re: Two questions
First, to Jar...
lol. In point 1, I would be talking about Christianity, Inc. In points 2 & 3, no; which is why I dropped the term Christianity in those two points. I couldn't get myself to use that term.
(1) If we were to return to "the way it ought to be," would that result in a return of the dark ages?
No. You are welcome to include yourself among the judges of what "the way it ought to be" is. There's very few people who consider the Dark Ages "the way it ought to be."
Will a culture that lives according to "the way it ought to be" go extinct in the face of the natural selection of cultures?
I hope not. For me, I am not speaking about a hypothetical culture, but the one I live in, which has been described as "the way it ought to be" on a pretty regular basis.
My thoughts on the "the way it ought to be" is a lifestyle in which people take care of one another, love one another, and are friends. I don't remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but I do remember that it includes confidence of survival, societal needs being met, and ends with "self-realization," or some phrase like that.
Insurance is one of America's way of assuring confidence of survival. Even welfare is supposed to be a form of insurance, though it's abused a lot. The idea of insurance is that a large group of people can handle the disasters that may afflict an individual, while an individual can't handle it himself.
The community of faith, also known as the household of God, is supposed to be that way. If I die or am disabled, I know that my family will be taken care of. My friends, together, can bear the loss of my income, whereas my family would not be able to do that on their own. My friends can replace me as father to my children, and while they are not free to replace certain roles I play as husband, they most certainly can provide for the safety, comfort, and emotional security of my wife. (As Ms. Clinton said, it takes a village to raise a child.)
That's some general thoughts. I'll address my OP in the next couple hours after I get a little work done.

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 Message 5 by nwr, posted 11-15-2005 1:56 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by nwr, posted 11-15-2005 5:48 PM truthlover has replied
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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 7 of 247 (259987)
11-15-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
11-15-2005 10:39 AM


Point two is not factual.
2.) "The Faith," is it was once known, has not always been a failure, and once produced what it promised.
There is no evidence for this assertion. Please provide some.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 11-15-2005 10:39 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by truthlover, posted 11-15-2005 4:53 PM mikehager has replied
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 8 of 247 (259998)
11-15-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mikehager
11-15-2005 3:07 PM


Re: Point two is not factual.
There is no evidence for this assertion. Please provide some.
quote:
Origen, Against Celsus III:30 (c. AD 230)
"The churches of God which are instructed by Christ, when carefully contrasted with the assemblies of the districts in which they are situated, are as beacons in the world; for who would n ot admit that even the inferior members of the church, and those who in comparison with the better are less worthy, are nevertheless more excellent than many of those who belong to the [public non-Christian] assemblies in the different districts?"
quote:
Tertullian Apology 30 (c. AD 200)
"We lift our eyes [to heaven], with hands outstretched, because free form sin, with head uncovered, for we have nothing of which to be ashamed."
ibid., 37
"Banded together as we are, ever so read to sacrifice our lives, what single case of revenge for injury are you able to point to, though, if it were held right among us to repay evil by evil, a single night with a torch or two could achieve an ample vengeance?"
ibid., 39
"The tried men of our elders preside over us, obtaining that honor not by purchase, but by established character. There is no buying and selling of any sort in the things of God. Though we have our treasure-chest, it is not made up of purchase-money, as of a religion that has its price. On the monthly day, if he likes, each puts in a small donation, but only if it be his pleasure, and only if he is able...These gifts are, as it were, piety's deposit fund. For they are not taken from there and spent on feasts...but to support and bury poor people, to supply the wants of boys and girls destitute of means and parents, and of old persons confined now to the house; such, too, as have suffered shipwreck...
"It is mainly the deeds of a love so noble that lead many to put a brand upon us. 'See,' they say, 'how they love one another,' for they themselves are animated by a mutual hatred. 'How they are ready even to die for one another,' for they themselves will sooner put to death...But on this very account perhaps, we are regarded as having less claim to be held true brothers...because the family possessions, which generally destroy brotherhood among you, create fraternal bonds among us. One in mind and soul, we do not hesitate to share our earthly goods with one another. All things are common among us but our wives."
quote:
Justin First Apology 14 (c. AD 150)
"We who valued above all things the acquisition of wealth and possessions, now bring what we have into a common stock, and share with everyone in need; we who hated and destroyed one another, and...would not live with men of a different tribe, now, since the coming of Christ, live familiarly with them, and pray for our enemies."
quote:
Athenagoras A Plea for the Christians 11 (c. AD 170)
"But among us you will find uneducated persons, and artisans, and old women, who, if they are unable in words to prove the benefit of our doctrine, yet by their deeds exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give to those that ask of them, and love their neighbours as themselves."
All of the above were either written to the current emperor of Rome or to the public at large. I could add more. The Letter to Diognetus is earlier than any of the above, and it has a description of the Christian lifestyle that is like these.
In fact, across the board, this is the description of the Christian life through the mid-3rd century. This description was subject to public refutation.
Secular sources are limited, but the accusations levied against Christians tended to be incest and bizarre rituals that included child sacrifice, not dishonesty, drunkenness, selfishness, or any sort of moral flaws that could be seen by neighbors. I think you'll find that Christians of the 2nd century were described as quiet, minding their own business, and honest.
With some hunting, I could find quite similar descriptions of the 16th century Anabaptists, the 13th century Waldensians ("The Poor"), and I would love to appeal to Franciscans at the time of St. Francis as well.
The promise of the faith is that it could unite its adherents into one body, with a mutual love, caring for one another above themselves, sharing in all things, and who are giving, kind, and non-vengeful to those around them. I think the evidence is very, very strong that this is what the churches had until it began collapsing in the 3rd century (which produces a 200-year success story), and was repeated on quite a large scale by the Anabaptists in Europe.
...edited for formatting
This message has been edited by truthlover, 11-15-2005 04:56 PM
This message has been edited by truthlover, 11-15-2005 04:58 PM

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 Message 7 by mikehager, posted 11-15-2005 3:07 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 5:58 PM truthlover has replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 247 (260000)
11-15-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
11-15-2005 10:39 AM


against the "resolution"
1.) Christianity as it is known today is a failure and does not produce what it promises
If the promise is the path to heaven then I disagree that it is a failure. I believe that I will go to heaven and it is one of the results of my Catholic upbringing.
I think that when a group of people is well defined, they become easy to disguise yourself as. Take a televangelist, for example, it seems pretty easy to act like a christian and make a lot of money off people and not even have to be christian in the first place.
I think the image of a broken christianity comes from the fakes, not from the true christians (whatever that it) actually being failures.
2.) "The Faith," is it was once known, has not always been a failure, and once produced what it promised
It seems that if I disagree with #1 then I need not reply to #2.
3.) If the problems are corrected, "The Faith" is capable of producing a lifestyle that is recognizable by most people as "the way it ought to be.”
I think that "the way it ought to be” is too idealistic, I mean, it is unrealistic.
quote:
The promise of the faith is that it could unite its adherents into one body, with a mutual love, caring for one another above themselves, sharing in all things, and who are giving, kind, and non-vengeful to those around them.
I think that is fine for a small community but for the world as a whole it wouldn’t work.
What about people who don’t want to unite with you?
What about people who want to take advantage of your community? Like the televangelists again, if you try to live by something that is too idealistic, then you opening yourself up. You could just turn the other cheek but then you could possibly be getting your ass kicked all day. Someday, your gonna have to defend yourself.
With your definition of the promise of faith, I think christianity has failed. Not because of some inherent flaw in the system, but because the promise, as you’ve defined, is the flaw. Its an unreachable goal. Its an ideal that cannot work in reality.
This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 11-15-2005 05:35 PM

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 10 of 247 (260002)
11-15-2005 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by truthlover
11-15-2005 2:47 PM


Only for small communities?
I am not speaking about a hypothetical culture, but the one I live in, which has been described as "the way it ought to be" on a pretty regular basis.
That's fine, and I presume that it is working well for you. But some people might find that kind of community to be oppressive, perhaps even stifling.
What you are doing, at least to a first approximation, is extending the idea of a family to a larger group of people who agree to cooperate. However some people have difficulty adapting to the constraints of ordinary family living.
Are are you suggesting something only for small communities? Is your idea that others should form similar communities? Or do you think that "the way it ought to be" can be adopted by an entire nation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by truthlover, posted 11-15-2005 2:47 PM truthlover has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 247 (260003)
11-15-2005 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by truthlover
11-15-2005 4:53 PM


Re: Point two is not factual.
Good point on the Anabaptists and Waldensians although pretty much all non-Catholics were labelled Anabaptists, and some Anabaptists went over the edge. "Oppression makes a wise man mad."
I think if you look at the New Testament, you will see serious problems that arose even during that short span. People are people, and there are going to be problems and immorality at times in any church. I do think there are things that can help correct that, and undoubtedly only serious and real Christians remain so under persecution, and groups tend to reinforce each member.
So during times of persecution, you are probably going to see a purer church, and the Christians will tend to have a higher standard of morality. When it's easy being a Christian in the sense of not facing as intense persecution (there is always spiritual persecution), it is more likely that even serious Christians won't live as purely as the corrupting influence of other Christians around them have an influence.
If you join the church with the state, you will have a ton of corruption as people hungry for political power seek to use the church to gain power.
So although I agree there needs to be basic improvements to today's Christianity, I don't think that it was always as pure and right in the past as some claim.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 247 (260019)
11-15-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by truthlover
11-15-2005 2:47 PM


Re: Two questions
(1) If we were to return to "the way it ought to be," would that result in a return of the dark ages?
No. You are welcome to include yourself among the judges of what "the way it ought to be" is. There's very few people who consider the Dark Ages "the way it ought to be."
I wouldn't say that your idea of "the way it ought to be" would result in a return to The Dark Ages but I do think it would result in darker ages. I mean, a little community living in harmony is a hindrance to technological advancement and, IMO, "the way it ought to be" is ahead of us, not behind us.
Make sense?

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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 13 of 247 (260024)
11-15-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by truthlover
11-15-2005 4:53 PM


Re: Point two is not factual.
Excellent! A request for support that resulted in support! Truthlover, I am thrilled.
All of the sources you cite (which seem good and which I completely accept) credit early Christians with being sober good citizens. Are you referring to fixing Christianity so that it provides good social controls?
Added: Rereading this I realize that the first line may have sounded sarcastic. I assure you it was not.
This message has been edited by mikehager, 11-15-2005 07:01 PM

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 14 of 247 (260122)
11-16-2005 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by truthlover
11-15-2005 4:53 PM


Re: Point two is not factual.
Secular sources are limited, but the accusations levied against Christians tended to be incest and bizarre rituals that included child sacrifice, not dishonesty, drunkenness, selfishness, or any sort of moral flaws that could be seen by neighbors. I think you'll find that Christians of the 2nd century were described as quiet, minding their own business, and honest.
With some hunting, I could find quite similar descriptions of the 16th century Anabaptists, the 13th century Waldensians ("The Poor"), and I would love to appeal to Franciscans at the time of St. Francis as well.
Think you can go well before the 2nd. century, TL. Acts 2:41 + might give an ideal community of three thousand souls or more. Just how long before the pressure in Jerusalem started to tell is anyone`s guess.In a volatile country with overlords battling uprisings, I don`t think the Romans would let a sizable body remain detached for long.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 247 (260142)
11-16-2005 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by mikehager
11-15-2005 3:07 PM


Re: Point two is not factual.
truthlover writes:
2.) "The Faith," is it was once known, has not always been a failure, and once produced what it promised.
MikeHagar writes:
There is no evidence for this assertion. Please provide some.
What type of evidence will you accept, Mike?
NIV writes:
Acts 4:32-35- All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
In addition to truthlovers excellent quotes from other sources, the book of Acts records a time when faith produced what it was foretold to become.
anybody with a brain writes:
So what happened?
Human nature took over and people tried to raise up and be like gods themselves.
Jesus red words in NIV writes:
Matt 24:9-14-- "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
This message has been edited by Charismaniac, 11-16-2005 04:47 AM

Matt 10:39-40 "Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me."Jesus Christ
Heb 4:12-13-- For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Holy Spirit,speaking through the Apostle Paul

This message is a reply to:
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