The politics of assassination

:yawn:You and Faith really want to get in to this?Let's start with an author's commentary on the Founding Fathers.

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Point for point, the Founding Fathers’ argument for liberty was the exact counterpart of the Puritans’ argument for dictatorship but in reverse, moving from the opposite starting point to the opposite conclusion. Man, the Founding Fathers said in essence (with a large assist from Locke and others), is the rational being; no authority, human or otherwise, can demand blind obedience from such a being not in the realm of thought or, therefore, in the realm of action, either. By his very nature, they said, man must be left free to exercise his reason and then to act accordingly, i.e., by the guidance of his best rational judgment. Because this world is of vital importance, they added, the motive of man’s action should be the pursuit of happiness. Because the individual, not a supernatural power, is the creator of wealth, a man should have the right to private property, the right to keep and use or trade his own product. And because man is basically good, they held, there is no need to leash him; there is nothing to fear in setting free a rational animal.
This, in substance, was the American argument for man’s inalienable rights. It was the argument that reason demands freedom.
Leonard Peikoff, Religion vs. America, The Voice of Reason

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And of course the Constitution:

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United States Constitution

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The First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...

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Article VI, Section 3
...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

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And now on to the Fathers themselves.Here's John Adams:

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John Adams (the second President of the United States)

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Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

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From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’

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From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

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Additional quotes from John Adams:
Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?

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The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

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...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.

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And Thomas Jefferson:

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Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

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Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

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From Jefferson’s biography:
...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’

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Jefferson’s The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom:
Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

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From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

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Jefferson’s Notes on Virginia:
Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?

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Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

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They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

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I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

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In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

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Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.

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Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

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...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry.

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And James Madison:

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James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

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Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

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Additional quote from James Madison:
Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

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Ben Franklin:

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Benjamin Franklin

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From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.

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From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.

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I think it's fairly obvious that, while the majority of the population of the United States has traditionally been overwhelmingly Christian, the framework of laws that makes up our government was designed to represent everyone, not only the Christian citizenry. The FOundign Fathers were not all Christian, and they designed the Constitution with the intent of seperating religion from the State for the sake of all belief systems, whether they be Christian, Deist like most of the Fathers, Jewish, Hindu or Atheist. Never was our society based on Christian ideals - our society is based on the rights of individuals as human beings, not rights granted by a deity the population may or may not believe in.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Tal,You can't just make a statement and not back it up. YOu have to have evidence. I have shown why your quotes do not back up your assertion and I think most people on this thread would agree with me. THis is typical for you. Spout fudie rhetoric and have no evidence that back s up your argument. You pretend to provide it, but it doesnt really exist.

No we are not, and it was specifically the founding fathers' intentions not to have a "church of the state" like the church of england.I define christain nation as: Christianity is where our founding fathers drew their basic moral concepts from and wrote secular laws based on those morals, with freedom of religion for all.

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He's using the profits from his country's natural resources to improve the lives of the poorer people in his country, rather than distributing them to the upper classes and the international corporations.He's also setting a bad example for other countries, which may also decide to use their natural resources for the benefit of their people rather than enriching the international corporations.The man is clearly dangerous. If I were a capitalist, I would be worried.

LMAO! No, Tal, this-- -- is a bigotted comment.

The quotes are there. That is evidence.Evidence of what is up to your intepretation.

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It isn't bigotted. It is scientific evidence.

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Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*

Ok Tal, I give up. There is no way you are going to consider for a second tht you are not backing up your argument. COntinue to believe things blindly, evidently it has gotten you this far.

Then what's the problem here people. I think Tal is right on this one. Many of the Founding Fathers were (more or less) Christian. They lived in a society that was more or less Christian (or at least Jewish based). The thinking of their society influenced their thinking when they wrote the Constitution.I don't have a problem with that.What I do have a problem with is when Fundies say, "We are a Christian Nation, therefore we should have Christian Prayer in school. We should have Christian Commandments on the walls. We should teach Christian mythology in the classroom."

yes they were more or less christian but they were not fundies. As proven by their lives and correspondence.

Ah ha! I've found the underlying root problem we've been having. Tal doesn't understand the meaning of the word "evidence". No wonder we've had such a struggle.

And the political assassination suggested by Pat is an execution for committing what crime, exactly? The people there are oppressed how? Chavez may be a dictator, but he's a really lite dictator - the constitution he proposed allows for his own recall, and he was elected by a popular majority vote. Show exactly where Chavez has committed some crime worthy of execution. I never said that anyone should "justify the guilty." I was simply pointing out that Jesus message was one of love, forgiveness, and understanding, not a message of war and punishment and wrath. Jesus, I believe, would never support political assassinations - a form of murder if not done in the defense of a nation. The Ten Commandments do not include "thou shalt kill anybody who doesn't follow these."But that's not my point. I am not a Christian minister. Pat Robertson is. As such, he is held to a different standard and should have different moral opinions than, say, a military leader.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Wow. Just....wow. There are no words to describe my shock.I mostly agree with Tal on something. Surely the world MUST be coming to an end!I agree, Tal, that Christianity influenced the moral character of the FOunding Fathers, and thus influenced the principles of the COnstitution itself. This is not to say that we should use the Ten COmmandments as our basis of law, or that we should declare "immoral" behavior to be illegal - it just means that Christianity had a large influence on the origins of the United States.The Founding Fathers, however, purposefully drafted the Constitution in such a way as to prevent Christianity or any other faith from oppressing people of other belief systems - the seperation of church and state.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Been waiting for you say this. This evidence was presented by YOUR SIDE.

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Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*

Anyone have any clue what he is talking about?