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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The politics of assassination | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Though Pat is not a particular favorite of mine I'm beginning to think he will get a nice welcome from Jesus for suffering persecution for His name. Excuse me? Are we talking about the same Jesus? You know, the one who said to turn the other cheek, and to love your neighbor? Assassination as a valid alternative to all-out war, while a queesy subject, is worth being discussed in the military. However, A Christian Minister should never be advocating murder, regardless of the reasons. Robertson isn't taking heat becuase he mentioned assassination - he's taking heat because, as a Christian minister, he said some very un-Christian things. He's straight-up supporting a direct violation of one of the Ten Commandments, not to mention everything Jesus stood for. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
:yawn:
You and Faith really want to get in to this? Let's start with an author's commentary on the Founding Fathers.
quote: And of course the Constitution:
quote: And now on to the Fathers themselves. Here's John Adams:
quote: And Thomas Jefferson:
quote: And James Madison:
quote: Ben Franklin:
quote: I think it's fairly obvious that, while the majority of the population of the United States has traditionally been overwhelmingly Christian, the framework of laws that makes up our government was designed to represent everyone, not only the Christian citizenry. The FOundign Fathers were not all Christian, and they designed the Constitution with the intent of seperating religion from the State for the sake of all belief systems, whether they be Christian, Deist like most of the Fathers, Jewish, Hindu or Atheist. Never was our society based on Christian ideals - our society is based on the rights of individuals as human beings, not rights granted by a deity the population may or may not believe in. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Obviously this hinges on the meaning of the term "murder." Some killing is just and not prohibited but even commanded by God, such as the execution of murderers and other violators of His Law. These days people have things so upside down about the commandment not to kill that they indignantly object to executing murderers, which is a rebellion against God's commandment and tramples the rights and honor of the murdered innocents. And the political assassination suggested by Pat is an execution for committing what crime, exactly? The people there are oppressed how? Chavez may be a dictator, but he's a really lite dictator - the constitution he proposed allows for his own recall, and he was elected by a popular majority vote. Show exactly where Chavez has committed some crime worthy of execution.
You also confuse God's commands to the individual to "turn the other cheek" with His clear commands about how to run a nation. And please tell me how it is loving one's neighbor to justify the guilty and ignore the claims of the innocent who are oppressed by the guilty? I never said that anyone should "justify the guilty." I was simply pointing out that Jesus message was one of love, forgiveness, and understanding, not a message of war and punishment and wrath. Jesus, I believe, would never support political assassinations - a form of murder if not done in the defense of a nation.
However, it is you who are in violation of the Ten Commandments if you refuse to support the execution of a violator of those commandments according to God's own Law. The Ten Commandments do not include "thou shalt kill anybody who doesn't follow these." But that's not my point. I am not a Christian minister. Pat Robertson is. As such, he is held to a different standard and should have different moral opinions than, say, a military leader. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
No we are not, and it was specifically the founding fathers' intentions not to have a "church of the state" like the church of england. I define christain nation as: Christianity is where our founding fathers drew their basic moral concepts from and wrote secular laws based on those morals, with freedom of religion for all. Wow. Just....wow. There are no words to describe my shock. I mostly agree with Tal on something. Surely the world MUST be coming to an end! I agree, Tal, that Christianity influenced the moral character of the FOunding Fathers, and thus influenced the principles of the COnstitution itself. This is not to say that we should use the Ten COmmandments as our basis of law, or that we should declare "immoral" behavior to be illegal - it just means that Christianity had a large influence on the origins of the United States. The Founding Fathers, however, purposefully drafted the Constitution in such a way as to prevent Christianity or any other faith from oppressing people of other belief systems - the seperation of church and state. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
You mean Rahvin has no friggin clue. Excuse me? Read the paper, and tell me that genetics have no role in the gender behavior of fruitflies. The paper does NOT say that you can "poke somebody with a cattle-prod" and turn them gay. I never said that either - I only said that this study along with others provides evidence that genetics play a role in determinging sexual orientation - not that genetifcs are the only factor. You're the only one who made that asinine assertion. ABE: This is all off-topic, as has been pointed out. To Holmes: which paper did you read? The link provided by Tal was not provided or referenced by me - that study is from 1996, as I recall. I will try to find my original source again, and I'll take it up with you in the genetics/homosexuality thread, where this discussion belongs. Sorry for the off-topic. This message has been edited by Rahvin, 08-26-2005 06:40 PM Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Ah, morality...
"Is it good becase God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?" Some Christians, myself included, would dispute your position on marality, Faith. I don'r believe God actually committed any of the horrible acts described in the Bible - I believe they were misconceptions and embellished stories made by the authors. Some, I believe were nothing more than made-up fables to prove a point. I, and many other Christians, certainly don't believe that an otherwise evil act is somehow magically "good" or "justice" simply becuase an all-powerful deity does it. I believe God is defined as good because He only DOES good - not that all acts He does are defined as good becasue He did them. The murder of the Egyptian Firstborn, the destruction of Soddom and Gamorrah - I don't believe God would do such things, and there is no evidence that He DID outside of the Bible itself. The killing of every man, woman and child in the various nations the Hebrews took over was certainly no command of the God I believe in - I believe the killing was simply an act of overzealous soldiers, and the Hebrews later attributed the act to God's Will as a justification for their bloodlust. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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