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Author Topic:   The politics of assassination
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 150 (237218)
08-26-2005 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Silent H
08-26-2005 5:38 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
OK, it's true I haven't kept up with all the things he is reputed to have said, it's just that I can hardly believe the condemnatory attitude here. I'll have to check up on those allegations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 08-26-2005 5:38 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Peal
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 77 of 150 (237252)
08-26-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-25-2005 9:03 PM


Do they mean the same thing?
Jar,
You left out publican. Sorry publican is old terminology. Use Republican.

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 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-25-2005 9:03 PM jar has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 150 (237267)
08-26-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:31 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
quote:
I believe it is more true of America in the past than it is now, but it is true that historically America has always been the leader in aid to the entire world of every sort. I believe it comes out of our previous identity as a Christian nation and was modeled on the missionary work that was also a big American project though done by individuals and churches and not the government.
You seem to be fitting the world around your Christian beliefs... It's quite common, unfortunately, a preacher tried to tell me that America was founded on Christianity, and that the founding fathers were born-again Christians. Education in History is key sometimes, as you have shown in your posts that are consistently wrong, and workings around what you believe. America was developed with "The Enlightenment" in mind, not Christ.
I have already told you that we are not the largest giver of aide in past replys, its just so obvious. And now that Phatboy has reiterated it, you backtrack.
I also have already said that Pat R. doesn't deserve this bashing of a thread. You were a little late on the post there. I just don't get why you keep saying lies about history to defend your position, it doesn't work like that. You form your stance around history, you don't form history around your stance.
quote:
previous identity as a Christian nation
Doesn't exist. Read the Constitution.

porteus@gmail.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tal, posted 08-26-2005 11:49 AM joshua221 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 79 of 150 (237272)
08-26-2005 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:31 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Hate to burst your bubble Faith. Well actually I love to.
quote:
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.
This comes from Religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers
which also has other info on the beliefs of the founding fathers.
Faith,
Do you have any idea when "in God We Trust" was put on US currency? Try 1956 during McCarthyism when we were opposing the "godless" communists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 3:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 12:38 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 80 of 150 (237287)
08-26-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by joshua221
08-26-2005 11:17 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
a preacher tried to tell me that America was founded on Christianity, and that the founding fathers were born-again Christians
Woodrow Wilson writes:
Woodrow Wilson,
"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scriptures. Ladies and gentlemen, I have a very simple thing to ask of you. I as of every man and woman in this audience that from this night on they will realize that part of the destiny of America lies in their daily perusal of this great book of revelations. That if they would see America free and pure they will make their own spirits free and pure by this baptism of the Holy Scripture." Woodrow Wilson, 1911, pre-Presidential campaign speech.
Harry Truman writes:
The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state.
Abraham Linocln writes:
Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.
Andrew Jackson writes:
"Go to the Scriptures...the joyful promises it contains will be a balsam to all your troubles. That book...is the rock on which our republic rests."
"Sir, I am in the hands of a merciful God. I have full confidence in His goodness and mercy...The Bible is true. I have tried to conform to its spirit as near as possible. Upon that sacred volume I rest my hope for eternal salvation, through the merits and blood of our blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."
[May 29th, 1845, just a few weeks before he died]
John Quincy Adams writes:
"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God."
James Monroe writes:
The liberty, prosperity, and the happiness of our country will always be the object of my most fervent prayers to the Supreme Author of All Good. March 5, 1821 in his Second Inaugural Address
Gee, I wonder why anyone would think they were christains?

Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2005 11:17 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2005 12:22 PM Tal has replied
 Message 83 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2005 12:43 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 90 by Nuggin, posted 08-26-2005 1:09 PM Tal has replied
 Message 91 by Nuggin, posted 08-26-2005 1:11 PM Tal has replied
 Message 144 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2005 7:48 PM Tal has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 81 of 150 (237303)
08-26-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tal
08-26-2005 11:49 AM


founding fathers Tal
Using Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman and Abraham Lincoln as arguments for the intent of the founding fathers is like having Bill Clinton and George Bush arguing the same thing.
THEY ARE NOT FOUNDING FATHERS.
In order to refute me you have to use the founding fathers. What was the country truly founded on? Not some interpretation by someone who came later.
The preacher was wrong. That is a fact.
By the way I thought you promised to change that offensive signature line. Maybe you can come up with another spurious quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tal, posted 08-26-2005 11:49 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tal, posted 08-26-2005 12:49 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 150 (237307)
08-26-2005 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Theodoric
08-26-2005 11:30 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Oh man he trots out the old Treaty of Tripoli argument. Washington was making the literal point that America was not a Christian nation, as were the European nations for instance, in that America does not have an established Church. Period. His aim was to dissuade Muslim pirates from kidnapping and enslaving American sailors on the ground that America was Christian and Christians were fair game for kidnapping and slavery according to the Koran. Some obvious ways America WAS nevertheless thoroughly Christian have to do with Congress opening with prayer in the name of Christ, adjourning for religious services, honoring the Sabbath by closing, and so on.
I am coming to believe that the founders may very well have betrayed their predominantly Christian constituents with the ambiguities of the Constitution they wrote, although an honest understanding of the thoroughly Christian nature of the America they lived in might convince you the revisionist dogma you subscribe to is in fact wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2005 11:30 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2005 12:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 83 of 150 (237309)
08-26-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tal
08-26-2005 11:49 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
No one ever said that none of the founding fathers were christian. Most were, but what we are saying is that the USA was not founded as a christian nation. If it were do you not think it would be in the constitution.
Andrew Jackson(not a founding father)
quote:
I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation form the political concerns of the General Government.
(letter explaining his refusal to proclaim a national day of, among other things, prayer.) He was very religious but understood the limitations.
John Quincy Adams (not a founding father)
quote:
There are in this country, as in all others, a certain proportion of restless and turbulent spirits - poor, unoccupied, ambitious - who must always have something to quarrel about with their neighbors. These people are the authors of religious revivals.
James Madison - That quote mean nothing to your argument. There is no mention of christianity. As many the founding fathers he was a Deist(View that reason, not revelation or tradition, should be the basis in belief in God). This is a very tyical way to expres this belief
Abraham Lincoln. This quote also does nothing to buttress your argument that USA was founded as a christian nation. Was he a christian? Yes, never argued he wasnt.
Harry Truman - This is his opinion. Look at what a founding father said.
Thomas Jefferson writes:
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
* Letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper (February 10, 1814)
Woodrow Wilson - again this has nothing to do with the founding of the USA. His opinions his religious belief

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tal, posted 08-26-2005 11:49 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Coragyps, posted 08-26-2005 12:53 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 84 of 150 (237311)
08-26-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
08-26-2005 12:38 PM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Faith,
Have you read the treaty? Or are you just aping fundamentalist dogma? Seems pretty unambiguous. As I said to Tal, where is christianity in the constitution?
although an honest understanding of the thoroughly Christian nature of the America they lived in
Oh please enlghten me. I would love to hear your arguments that the average person expected that they were a Christian nation. OH and please tell me how fundamentalist the vast majority of people were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 12:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 85 of 150 (237312)
08-26-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Theodoric
08-26-2005 12:22 PM


Re: founding fathers Tal
Yeah, John Quincy Adams (6th President) doesn't count eh?
But, fine.
Benjamin Franklin - The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: 'that God governs in the affairs of men.' And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?
I have now disposed of all my property to my family. There is one thing more I wish I could give them, and that is the Christian religion.
That was "Give me liberty of give me death" Patrick Henry
Here's the full quote
Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
Here's Patrick Henry again, letter to his daughter Betsy, 20 August, 1796.
Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.
John Jay - Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
John Jay was our first Chief Justice.
Samuel Adams - Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.

Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2005 12:22 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2005 1:06 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 106 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2005 1:46 PM Tal has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 86 of 150 (237318)
08-26-2005 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Theodoric
08-26-2005 12:43 PM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
While we're quoting Lincoln:
"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."
-- Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J. S. Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln's death

This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 87 of 150 (237321)
08-26-2005 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:31 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
it is true that historically America has always been the leader in aid to the entire world of every sort.
Show me the numbers on the aid we gave out during the Great Depression compared to the other countries of the world.
Don't use words like "always" unless you mean them.
Over the last few decades the nation has deteriorated morally in many ways
I always love when people say this. By the way, people have been saying it for a very long time. Kind of makes you think we've been on a long slide for the last few hundred years.
Are you suggesting that the shoot 'em up, drink 'em up, whore 'em up days of the Wild West were morally superior to our own?
Perhaps the gangster tommygun 20's
Or are you talking about a time closer to our own. The segregationist 50's perhaps.
The fact of the matter is that people lionize the past as the "good old days" and talk about the "moral decay" or modern society and the "coming wrath of God" as a means of drumming up donations.
They were doing it in the 50's, in the 20's and in the Wild wild west.
The reason they say these things is simple. "things are bad now, and I can fix them. Give me money" works a lot better than "Things used to be bad, we've come a long way. Give me money."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 88 of 150 (237322)
08-26-2005 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
08-25-2005 6:55 PM


Though Pat is not a particular favorite of mine I'm beginning to think he will get a nice welcome from Jesus for suffering persecution for His name.
Excuse me?
Are we talking about the same Jesus? You know, the one who said to turn the other cheek, and to love your neighbor?
Assassination as a valid alternative to all-out war, while a queesy subject, is worth being discussed in the military.
However, A Christian Minister should never be advocating murder, regardless of the reasons. Robertson isn't taking heat becuase he mentioned assassination - he's taking heat because, as a Christian minister, he said some very un-Christian things. He's straight-up supporting a direct violation of one of the Ten Commandments, not to mention everything Jesus stood for.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 08-25-2005 6:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 1:27 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 89 of 150 (237325)
08-26-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tal
08-26-2005 12:49 PM


Re: founding fathers Tal
Again Tal,I want to say that no one is arguing that a vast majority of them were christians, but there was no intent to ahve a christian nation. To call on Benajmin Franklin shows your total lack in history. Do some research on the man. Again this quote does not address christianity.
DO you know Mary Todd Lincoln said "Mr. Lincoln was not a Christian"
Patrick Henry was a very strong fundamentalist christian. He supported the Episcopalian church to be the official church of the state of virginia. Others including James Madison defeated this. Read more about dear old Patrick before you decide he is your lightning rod. He also made strong arguments for religious tolerance.
JOhn Jay was also extremely religious. Again I ask how does this quote do any more than express an opinion of the author.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tal, posted 08-26-2005 12:49 PM Tal has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 90 of 150 (237326)
08-26-2005 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tal
08-26-2005 11:49 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Wow, nice post Tal.
You've really proven you're point that when looking for milage, Presidents / candidates will play the Jesus card to shore up support.
This, however, doesn't make us a "Christian Nation".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tal, posted 08-26-2005 11:49 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tal, posted 08-26-2005 1:20 PM Nuggin has replied

  
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