Is man inherently good or inherently evil?

No, I said it is good because creates it. This bad habit you have, has to stop between me and you. You cannot go around putting dumb words into peoples mouths like that. I will report you if you keep doing it. It is insulting what you have just accused me of. I do it for God's love NOW. Before I did it just for good. God's love equals the greater good, and represents humanity.You are missing the point and creating a mind set, that you think all christians follow.We are a human race, we are unified by God, in that he created us to be a group. When a Christian does the work of the Lord he does it for the good, God, with Love, and the human race. Not because he needs a tax right off, or for anyone of those reasons seperate from the others.You would have it that those who do things just for the good, is good enough. I say, you can't judge that, and niether can I. Or can you judge me or my works.

this passage is a reference to Satan, the father of all lies. It describes his origin and how he progressed to sinfulness.
There is more to read about it in the rest of Chapter 28.
The king of Tyrus here is representative.11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.Hope that helps.We are as we are as a result of how he became and how we made/make ourselves subject to him starting with Adam.

love someone, you want to show that love (works) or the love is meaningless. They rather go hand in hand - and must - as shown.
It is really just common sense.

You do realise there is no secular evidence for any Jesus of Nazareth from before the Jewish revolt in 70 C.E> at all.

Secular evidence? So you are suggesting that the story was another of many ancient myths constructed by people with ulterior motives? Of course, this feelgood answer makes the modern day humanist feel much better about the future of a society who has only its own collective wisdom to worship. As long as Christians exist on the planet who feel strongly that the story was true, you intellectual humanists will just have to worship your own wisdom while we worship our God.

Of course, you are misreprenting the Jewish position on Faith and works.Judaism is a works oriented religion. Plus, in Judism there is no concept of 'salvation' for the afterlife. It is LIFE oriented to the
hear and now.The laws of the Jews are for the Jews, and how the Jews have decieded to
worship God. They acknowledge that it is not the only path to god.

But that is how it was thought of back then. Jesus taught us the difference. The Jews are slowing changing their ways because they realize that their way is incorrect, or missing the happy ending. The Jews need Jesus to complete their own prophecies.Look at how many things have changed for the Jews since Christ.
But that is another topic. I believe what I described explains that verse perfectly.

riVeRraT responds to me:

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If the way to God is the way of faith and of acceptance

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But it isn't.Peter says works. Paul says faith.Which is it?

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There was a certain kind of Judaism which kept a kind of profit and loss account with God. In the end a man often came to a frame of mind in which he rather held that God was in his debt. Paul's position was that every man is a sinner and God's debtor, that no man could ever put himself back into a right relationship with God through his own efforts and that grounds for self-satisfaction and boasting in one's own achievement no longer exist.

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In other words, one was based in Judaism and the other side heard what you had to do to be a Jew ("You want me to cut off my what?!") and decided to change the direct statement of Jesus ("I come not to change the law but to fulfill it) in order to gain converts.

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It is not the law of fear but the law of love which keeps him right. It must be that way with us and God.

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And when god breaks the law, what then? What is god's punishment?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Weren't you just arguing that things are good because god says so?

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No, I said it is good because creates it.

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So why does god admit to creating evil? If everything god creates is good, how can god create evil? And why on earth would god ever admit to making a mistake and repenting over it? You don't repent things that went right.

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Congratulations. You just said that everybody who isn't a Christian is a selfish bastard.

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You really need to learn how to stop insulting people.

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This bad habit you have, has to stop between me and you. You cannot go around putting dumb words into peoples mouths like that. I will report you if you keep doing it. It is insulting what you have just accused me of.

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Report me to whom? The moderators are here already. They see what I write. I will continue to say what I feel like saying until they tell me to stop.How telling it is that you seem to feel no compunction to stop insulting others and yet at the slightest blowback, you run screaming and crying off to Mommy.You're right that it was insulting, riVeRraT. It was supposed to be. It was done to specifically show you what you have been doing to other people. If you don't like it when it is done to you, perhaps you should consider not doing it to others.

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Ah, so you're doing it because god is bribing you to do it. How corrupt.

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I do it for God's love NOW.

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Ah, so you're a junkie. Gotta get your fix, eh?Whether or not you get your bribe here and now or after you die does not change the fact that you've been bribed.

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You are missing the point and creating a mind set, that you think all christians follow.

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No, just you.You are not like all Christians.

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When a Christian does the work of the Lord he does it for the good, God, with Love, and the human race.

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That may be, but you've directly said that one cannot do god's work if one isn't Christian. You may do it for god, but what's to stop others from doing the exact same thing but without the need for god's approval?As I said before, congratulations. You just said that everybody who isn't a Christian is a selfish bastard. You really need to learn how to stop insulting people.

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You would have it that those who do things just for the good, is good enough.

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That's what Peter says. Are you saying Peter was wrong?

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Or can you judge me or my works.

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Yes, I can. I am an adult and I understand the difference between right and wrong. After all, every single human being does due to Adam and Eve's eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, right?You don't get to have it both ways. Either I know right and wrong and thus am capable of judging you, or I don't and I can't.Which is it?Note, if I don't know right and wrong, how is it fair to judge me for what I am incapable of understanding?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy responds to ramoss:

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So you are suggesting that the story was another of many ancient myths constructed by people with ulterior motives?

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Why not? It has all the hallmarks. This Jesus character is nothing more than a warmed-over version of a whole host of other saviors including Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysus. Since there is absolutely no record of Jesus existing outside of the religious works that have a vested interest in claiming that he did, on what basis can we truly make that claim?

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As long as Christians exist on the planet who feel strongly that the story was true

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Wishing makes it so?Are you serious?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT writes:

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The Jews need Jesus to complete their own prophecies.

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But Jesus doesn't fulfill the prophecies. He was supposed to be a warlord who would cast out the unrighteous and unite the nation.He didn't.Ergo, he cannot be the Messiah.Congratulations, riVeRraT. You just said that all Jews are idiots.You really need to learn how to stop insulting people.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Many of the most monumental decisions in battles, politics, and education have been based largely upon intutive thought. Intuition was a hallmark of general George Patton. There is a difference between fanciful wishes and deep seated intuitions. *blink*
Yes, I am.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-30-2004 02:30 AM

Phatboy responds to me:

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Wishing makes it so?

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Many of the most monumental decisions in battles, politics, and education have been based largely upon intutive thought.

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Irrelevant. There is no such thing as "intuition." There is the educated guess, but the hallmark of someone who knows how to make an educated guess is that he knows it is a guess and not reality.

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Intuition was a hallmark of general George Patton.

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And he was damned lucky. In the world of reality, your guts are of no use.

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There is a difference between fanciful wishes and deep seated intuitions.

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No, there isn't. Intuition is nothing more than wishful thinking.

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are you serious?

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*blink*
Yes, I am.

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And that is why you live in a fantasy world, incapable of seeing the reality around you. If you believe hard enough, you can really fly, right?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

You keep saying the Peter says works, I disagree. I do not get that from reading the bible.

I haven't done anything rhain, you have accused me through your process of logic. You seem to think you can see into my mind or something. You also think you are greater than I. Too bad, it will be your demise.Stop making false accusations, otherwise we cannot talk to each other then.Where does God come down and admit to creating evil? But I have directly said that I cannot judge that. But it is clear to me when someone is doing work for the Lord or if he is doing it for the good.You say goodness, I say Godnesss. There clearly is a difference, and neither one is selfish like you claim. This is your main problem. You seem to think you can figure someone out through your thought process. You are an inciter. Instead of calmly asking me what I meant by this, you have claimed that you know what I meant by this. You put words in peoples mouths, which is counter productive, and not condusive to the conversation. You need to check that at the door. You can judge all you want. Just I wouldn't suggest judging others in a fashion that you yourself wouldn't want to be judged.
Plus yours is not the final judgment.We all know right and wrong, but in order to fully judge something you need to know all the variables in how that thing got to be where it is at. Something we may never know.I cannot judge you, because I do not know your life story. I have no right to tell you, that you are going to heaven or hell, based on the few things I see here. God knows what you are capable of, and he is the one who will make the final judgement.I can judge you in a fashion, of whether I want to talk to you or not.
I mean even Jesus gave up on people after he gave them a chance. If you choose not to accept Jesus, than that is your choice. I will never be able to understand your choices, or claim if they are right or wrong, its not my job.