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Author | Topic: Is man inherently good or inherently evil? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
riVeRraT Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
But Jesus doesn't fulfill the prophecies. He was supposed to be a warlord who would cast out the unrighteous and unite the nation.
Like God, he left it up to us. It is our responsiblility. With his teachings that would happen, if we followed them. He was a warlord of the mind.
Congratulations, riVeRraT. You just said that all Jews are idiots. You really need to learn how to stop insulting people.
Isn't this like leading the witness or something?Admin?
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Rrhain writes:
The claim? That Jesus exists "in" His followers. The Spirit of God is not a mere I.P.U. fancy dreamed up by desperate losers. This Jesus character is nothing more than a warmed-over version of a whole host of other saviors including Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysus. Since there is absolutely no record of Jesus existing outside of the religious works that have a vested interest in claiming that he did, on what basis can we truly make that claim?University of Pennsylvania criminologist Byron Johnson examined forty religion-delinquency studies, including his own. His conclusion: "Most delinquent acts were committed by juveniles who had low levels of religious commitment. Those juveniles whose religiosity levels were in the middle to high levels committed very few delinquent acts." Even when controlling for other factors, such as socioeconomic level, neighborhood, and peer influences, kids who went to church rarely were delinquent. So we know that "feeling better" about oneself improves morality. Is this caused by our own internal perception? Some think so. However, A half dozen national surveys also reveal that faith is linked to volunteerism. In one Gallup survey, charitable and social service volunteering was reported by 28 percent of those who rated religion "not very important" in their lives and by 50 percent of those who rated it "very important." So it is not only an internal attribute.
People who think godliness unrelated to goodliness might also want to consider: Who most often adopts children? Who sponsors the nation's food pantries and soup kitchens? Who first took medicine into the Third World and opened hospitals? Who sheltered orphans? Who spread literacy and established schools and universities? And who led movements to abolish the slave trade, end apartheid, and establish civil rights? Faith is more than wishful thinking.
Let no one be smug. Cruelty and compassion, mischief and morality, are exhibited by people of all faiths and none. Many are good without God and many believers go to sleep each night behind bars. Yet the accumulating evidence indicates that faith often tethers self-interest and nurtures character. Godliness and goodliness are more than typographically linked. Published in Sightings, from the Martin Marty Center at the University of Chicago Divinity School, 2001.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
riVeRraT responds to me:
quote: Then we are at an impasse and you should probably let this subject go. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:quote: (*chuckle*) You call Jews idiots, claim that those who don't follow Jesus are selfish bastards, etc., etc. and you have the unmitigated gall to claim you haven't done anything?
quote: Nope. I can only see into what you say. If you don't mean what you say, then perhaps you shouldn't say it. Your words indicate a fundamental lack of respect for anybody who doesn't agree with your vision of how god is supposed to be and you make it crystal clear every time you open your mouth. If you don't mean this, then you need to find a new way of speaking.
quote: Way to go! Condemn me to hell! That's really respectful. I can feel the love all the way from here. You've seen this before. Say it with me: BZZZZT! Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has! Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations. But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat. You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you? Do you not see the insult you just threw my way? Because I don't agree with your opinion about god, I'm somehow going to be punished for all eternity! How on earth is that showing any sign of respect to someone else?
quote: Oh, for crying out loud! Have you not paid attention to anything? As I said in Message 278 of A question that was first presented by Socrates: Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. You were an active participant in that thread, riVeRraT. Don't you dare to pretend like you haven't seen that verse before. That was not the only time it showed up and I am not the only one who has mentioned it but unfortunately, the search function for the board isn't working correctly and I cannot find the many times it has been brought up.
quote:quote: But you just did!
Too bad, it will be your demise. You just condemned me to hell, riVeRraT! What on earth do you think that is if not judgement?
quote: I wasn't the one making the claim, riVeRraT. You were. You were the one that said that if people do things outside of doing it for god, they're doing it for themselves. That sounds like selfishness to me.
quote: I certainly have you pegged. You've already apologized to me once.
quote: (*chuckle*) Nobody can make you do anything you don't want to do, riVeRraT. If you really didn't believe the things you are doing, you wouldn't do them.
quote: Prove it. Show me where I have put any word into your mouth. Start with this message right here. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you didn't mean to threaten me with god's judgement when you said:
Too bad, it will be your demise. You've already had to apologize to me once. Try not to let it happen again.
quote:quote: Non sequitur. Let's try it again, shall we? Either I know right and wrong and thus am capable of judging you, or I don't and I can't. Which is it? Whether or not I attempt to judge doesn't mean I'm actually doing it. The question put before you is whether or not I have that ability. Do humans know right and wrong? Wasn't that the result of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge?
quote: Why not? If I'm doing something wrong, I would hope someone would point it out.
quote: Let's try it again, shall we? BZZZZT! Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has! Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations. But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat. You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you? You just condemned me to hell, riVeRraT.
[I][B]AGAIN[/I][/b] For someone who is so insistent about not judging, you do an amazing amount of it.
quote: And yet, you do it all the time. Twice in this one message alone. You've already had to apologize to me once.
quote: I thought god was eternal love who would never, ever give up on someone if they really wanted to change.
quote: But you feel perfectly free to claim that I am going to hell for not doing so. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:quote: Non sequitur. You cannot "leave it up to us" if Jesus is supposed to fulfill the prophecy. If Jesus is supposed to be the one to do thus-and-so, then if somebody else does it, Jesus didn't do it. And if it is the sign of the Messiah upon the person who does thus-and-so and it isn't Jesus, then Jesus is not the Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to be a warlord who would directly and physically cast out the unrighteous and unite the nation. Jesus didn't do that. Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah.
quote:quote: I have no control over your posts. It isn't like I can make you type something you don't want to type. If you don't want to imply that Jews are fools for not recognizing that Jesus is the Messiah, then perhaps you should stop treating them as if they are. That requires acknowledging their point of view and considering it to be valid...something you seem to be unwilling to do. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Phatboy responds to me:
quote: Congratulations, Phatboy. You've just said that anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus is a "desperate loser." Every other religion out there makes the exact same claim, Phatboy. Why are we to trust you over them?
quote: (*chuckle*) The most prestigious hospital in the country, Johns-Hopkins, was founded specifically to get away from the religiously motivated medical systems that had been established. They wanted a place where people could come to receive medical treatment without the religious overtones. Oh, and then there's Doctors Without Borders...determinedly non-religious. And despite what the Republicans say, they do not finance their operation through trafficking in organs. But, I'm hardly surprised to see a bunch of religious fanatics say such a thing about a non-religious organization that does better work than they do. Surely you aren't going to trot out the stupid question of, "Where are the atheist hospitals?" are you? Considering that 98% of the country believes in god and since atheists have no motivation to get together in organized groups, why on earth would anybody expect to find the great atheist monoliths the way you do the religious ones?
quote: Yes, but in a negative correlation. The religious are more likely to commit crimes and do evil than the atheist.
quote: Except that atheists do the exact same thing. The thing you are missing is that all of those delinquents still believed in god. People in prison are much more likely to be religious than atheist. It is not faith, it is will. You can get will through lots of places, but faith is not the only nor the best source. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Rrhain writes: Interesting statistic. Where did you find it? Not that I don't believe you, Rrhain. You are annoying at times yet you DO have a good mind.
The religious are more likely to commit crimes and do evil than the atheist.You can get will through lots of places, but faith is not the only nor the best source. So what would be the best source, in your opinion? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-31-2004 02:00 AM
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
You call Jews idiots, claim that those who don't follow Jesus are selfish bastards, etc., etc. and you have the unmitigated gall to claim you haven't done anything?
Congradulations, you have just called all Jews who follow Jesus idiots.
If you don't mean this, then you need to find a new way of speaking.
You need to find a new way of listening, because your the only one who deosn't understand what I say, self check yourself first.
Way to go! Condemn me to hell! That's really respectful. I can feel the love all the way from here. You've seen this before. Say it with me:
Demise does not equal Hell. But if you feel that way about yourself, then see ya later.
Do you not see the insult you just threw my way? Because I don't agree with your opinion about god, I'm somehow going to be punished for all eternity! How on earth is that showing any sign of respect to someone else?
Um no.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Like I said before, and God wrote that with his hand?
But you just did! Too bad, it will be your demise. You just condemned me to hell, riVeRraT! What on earth do you think that is if not judgement?
Um no again. Wrong again, no need to judge someone who constantly gets things wrong. Then its not judging if I say it will be your demise.What else would you expect of someone who keeps getting things wrong?
I wasn't the one making the claim, riVeRraT. You were. You were the one that said that if people do things outside of doing it for god, they're doing it for themselves. That sounds like selfishness to me.
There is only one path to righteousness. If you do something for the good, and the good comes from withinside you. Who are you doing it for? But the good is not selfish.
I certainly have you pegged. You've already apologized to me once.
So this is how you judge others? BZZZZT! Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, rhain. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has! Well, Bob, rhain has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, rhaingets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations. But, he'll never look bad because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Greaser hair formula. You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you? Apologizing is something you do not seem to be capable of, no matter how many times your wrong. Self check again.
And yet, you do it all the time. Twice in this one message alone. You've already had to apologize to me once.
No I haven't, that was your mis-interpretation, for which you have not apologized. I apologized for your mis-interpretation.
But you feel perfectly free to claim that I am going to hell for not doing so.
I'm sorry you feel that way. You put me down for thinking that I am sending you to hell, yet you send me to hell rhain. That is a hypocrite, which is a form of lying. Lying is a sin, and if you break one sin you have broken them all. Thanks for murdering me rhain, you are a murderer.So now say you walk outside your house today rhain, and a car strikes you dead (hypothetical) and you are standing at the gates of heaven in front of God's glory. What are you going to say to God about your sins? What are you going to say to God about your sins? What will you say? This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 10-31-2004 07:27 AM This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 10-31-2004 07:29 AM
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CK Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: Well that's funny because you seem to confirm his view with your first statement.
quote: Defacto - those who don't are idiots thus proving Rrhian's point.
quote: Not sure what this has to do with the subject but frankly it's full of holes anyway.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
physically
It says that?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Hey rhain, I bet you can't figure out which one is out of sequence:
010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010
101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010110010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
You have missed all my points.
Actually you haven't. I know that. In your reply you haven't acknowledge them. I do not have to explain myself to you, because you already know what I was talking about.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Out of sequence? How about 10th row, 32nd digit. Rat, you really are not helping anyone by showing your frustration with Rrhain. I will admit that he does like to challenge philosophical assumptions for no other reason than to prove that they are indeed assumptions. You have to realize, however, that your human rant proves the point of this topic. Man is inherently evil, and even a Christian who supposedly knows Jesus---as I believe that you do---has to deal with their own human issues of pride. As for you, Rrhain, I hold nothing against you. You are a great asset to budding Christian apologists everywhere. We often take our faith for granted and assume that everyone else sees the same light that we see. All that you guys see, however, is a moth trapped by a flame. Would you listen to a talking moth inviting you to share the light with them? Now...unless any of us has a new angle, I suggest that we allow this topic a rest. Oh wait...one more angle.
To Rrhain: Do you think that humans are basically and inherently "good"? What is the source of our standard? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-31-2004 11:33 AM
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CK Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Is that reply meant to be in code?
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Phatboy responds to me:
quote:quote: Federal Bureau of Prisons. According to them, only about 0.2% of prisoners are atheist. This is in comparison to the approximately 2% of the population that are atheists.
quote:quote: No idea. I don't have nearly enough information about human psychology to make such a statement. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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