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Author Topic:   Why, if god limited man's life to 120 years, did people live longer?
John
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 230 (25611)
12-05-2002 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by David unfamous
12-05-2002 2:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by David unfamous:
If a day is a thousand years, nightime must've been terrible.
Well, with all that incest, polygamy, and concubine taking maybe it wasn't so bad?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by David unfamous, posted 12-05-2002 2:39 PM David unfamous has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 230 (26497)
12-13-2002 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Skandoggy
12-13-2002 10:43 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Skandoggy:
HOPE THIS REPLY HELPS: Some Bibles say that God said he would limit their lifespan till time indefinite - or an undefined time(not for EVER)
I checked five versions, including one in Hebrew, and they all say 'I will not abide with man forever, therefore his days shall be 120 years.' I'm not sure where you are getting this supposed equivocation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Skandoggy, posted 12-13-2002 10:43 AM Skandoggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 4:21 PM John has replied
 Message 19 by Skandoggy, posted 12-15-2002 1:24 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 230 (26560)
12-13-2002 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky
12-13-2002 4:21 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
This is interesting though of course I don't see how an extra 7 years makes too much difference. The fact that man ceased to live 600-900 years seems much more significant. The fact that some lived a little over 120 years does not seem like a contradiction to me. Was 127 yrs the longest since then?

Gen. 7:6 Noah is 600.
Gen 9:28 Noah lived 350 years after the flood
Gen 9:29 We get Noah's age at death of 950.
Gen 11:10-11 Shem has Arpachshad 2 years after the flood when he was 100 and then lived 500 years after that
Gen 11:12-13 Arpachshad begat Shelah at 35 and then lived 403 years.
Gen 11:14-15 Shelah begot Eber at 30 and then lived 403 years.
Gen 11:16-17 Eber begot Peleg at 34 and then lived 403 years.
Gen 11:18-19 Peleg begot Reu at 30 and then lived 209 years.
Good enough?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 4:21 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-14-2002 2:53 AM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 230 (26580)
12-14-2002 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky
12-14-2002 2:53 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Most of these are people born before the flood. The change still occured as God had said in the lifespan. What is the argument here? This is weak. Not meant as insult but I do not see a real argument here. If you want to be completely literal then you have an argument. An argument that is too shaky for me.
As joz points out, funk, only a few names were of people born before the flood. If you look at the list I gave, you'll notice that it is a genealogy, and that the Bible gives conception dates as YEARS AFTER THE FLOOD. Secondly, I stopped listing not because I ran out of names but becuase I figured six or seven names were enough. After all, ONE contrary example proves that god didn't stick to the 120 years threat.
Gen 11:20-21 Rue 437
Gen 11:22-23 Serug 230
Gen 11:24-25 Nahor 148
Gen 11:32 Terah 205
Gen 23:1 Sarah 127
Gen 25:7 Abraham 175
Gen 25:17 Ishmael 137
Gen 35:28 Isaac 180
Gen 47:28 Jacob 147
Ex. 6:16 Levi 137
Ex. 6:18 Kohath 133
Ex. 6:20 Amram 137
Were all of these people born before the flood, funk?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 12-14-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-14-2002 2:53 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-14-2002 7:51 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 230 (26650)
12-15-2002 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by funkmasterfreaky
12-14-2002 7:51 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Sorry I was wrong.
Do you realize the implications?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-14-2002 7:51 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 2:43 PM John has not replied
 Message 22 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 9:06 AM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 230 (26663)
12-15-2002 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Skandoggy
12-15-2002 1:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Skandoggy:
THREE POINTS OF INTEREST:1) The New World Translation 1984 says: My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.
ummmm.... right. And the example I provided show lifespans of longer than that.
quote:
2) The Authorized Version 1954 says: My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Isn't this the same point as above?
quote:
3) Neither of these examples or your five, John, say what the Stickman's Bible says re: ...I will not allow people to LIVE FOR EVER...
Why is this relevant? The point is that God sets an age limit of 120 and in the next breath violates it.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Skandoggy, posted 12-15-2002 1:24 PM Skandoggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 9:42 AM John has replied
 Message 24 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 10:16 AM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 230 (26760)
12-16-2002 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Skandoggy
12-16-2002 9:42 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Skandoggy:
To whom does God limit lifespans, John?
aleph, dalet, mem == adam == man, men, as in humanity. Are you claiming differently?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 9:42 AM Skandoggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 5:21 PM John has not replied
 Message 27 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 5:22 PM John has replied
 Message 29 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 5:36 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 230 (26857)
12-16-2002 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Skandoggy
12-16-2002 5:22 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Skandoggy:
God limits the lifespan of those who have inherited Adamic sin. Do you know what that is?
If you have a point please make it. I don't feel like twenty questions.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 5:22 PM Skandoggy has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 230 (26860)
12-16-2002 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Skandoggy
12-16-2002 5:36 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Skandoggy:
God limits the lifespan of those who have inherited Adamic sin. Do you know what that is?
So, you don't have a point to make then? If you do, just make it. Spell it out. Define, describe, whatever. Just make you point.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Skandoggy, posted 12-16-2002 5:36 PM Skandoggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Skandoggy, posted 12-17-2002 3:12 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 230 (27075)
12-17-2002 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Skandoggy
12-17-2002 3:12 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Skandoggy:
[B]I was only trying to help you see this at a level that you feel comfortable dealing with.{/b][/quote]
What does that mean?
quote:
I rarely respond to bullies - if you try it again I won't reply.
Bully? Telling you to make your case is being a bully? Cutting short your childish game is being a bully? Sorry. I don't buy it.
quote:
I apologise for the duplicate postings. I haven't figured a way round that. Either it doesn't post the message atall or does so numerous times!
The key is patience, sometimes a whole lot of it.
quote:
Anyway, here goes: Every scripture has to be understood within the context of the entire Bible.
No it doesn't. The various books were not written at once but over a period of hundreds of years, perhaps a thousand. Thus, they are sequencial, at least in part. The BIBLE itself didn't exist until it was compiled for Constantine. Prior to that there were thousands of seperate books, most of which didn't make it into Constantine's collection.
quote:
If you take Ryan's initial sentence out of context it could be assumed that God declared: 'I will not allow people to live forever,' for the first time.
Why does it matter if this was the first time or not?
quote:
He bestowed that particular curse way before when Adam and Eve violated His commands.
Hence, the Adamic sin questions. See how easy it is to just say what you mean?
quote:
Therefore the scripture which Ryan quoted has, logically, to be a reminder of what was already going on at the time.
Genesis 6 writes:
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose. 3 And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
Logically, verse 3 is a reaction to verse 2, and verse 2 is not about what happened in the Garden. It is about what was happening between humans and the Sons of God.
quote:
So, it is not true to say that he will never allow folk to live forever again, and indeed, it doesn't say that, but that's what some people may gather if they are unfamiliar with the bigger picture.
So verse 3 wasn't God talking?
quote:
I couldn't stand around and let something so crucial go over anyone's head without doing a disservice to God.
You have been quite unconvincing. Sorry.
quote:
The word 'indefinitely' conveys the understanding of an undetermined time. You could paraphrase it thus: 'My spirit shall not act towards man for an undetermined time' or: 'I will not allow people to have everlasting life until the time that I determine.'
Why is it that the verse is not translated as such? Perhaps because that isn't what it says?
quote:
This is all tied in with the effect that the Nephalim had over people in those days.
Obviously. That is what verse 2 asserts, and that is what you appear to be trying to deny.
quote:
As a consequence of the Adamic sin, Adam's descendants failed to live forever - the point being that this was already happening.
You've made this part up. I don't know how else to respond. This is patently not what the Bible says on the issue.
quote:
If you have a look at Genesis 6:3 you will see that it begins with, 'After that...' After what? After the sons of God (fallen angels) took the daughters of men for their wives... then God pronounced the 120 year maximum lifespan.
1) It didn't effect even those that were alive at the time.
2) Where are you seeing "after that"? Do you mean in Gen 6:4?
Genesis writes:
4 There were men of great strength and size on the earth in those days; and after that, when the sons of God had connection with the daughters of men, they gave birth to children: these were the great men of old days, the men of great name.
Seems like, after that humans and angels made babies who became the great men of old.
quote:
But the Bible doesn't say it affected anyone else after that.
Nothing in the passage suggests this interpretation.
quote:
The Adamic sin did, yes, which is why the few survivors of the Flood and each generation ever since did not and do not live forever.
But lived longer than GOD allowed. This is the point. GOD specifically said no more than 120, but people went right on living to absurd ages.
quote:
Also, the 120 year restriction will not apply to post-Armageddon survivors.
Nice of you to speak for God. I'm sure he appreciates it.
quote:
I know that's not made clear in Genesis 6:3 but God couldn't have everything in the Bible put on one page, now could he?
Made clear? Made up, by you. Sure, you can't put the whole story on the same page but you can make it not conflict with itself.
quote:
This message has taken me about fifty years to compose and I hope that it has shed a little light on things for you.
I am sincerely stunned by the mental gymnastics, no offense intended (honestly).
quote:
It would be great to think that you read this in the same manner that I wrote it.
Depends on how you wrote it. Was it written in the spirit of apology, as it seem? Or in the spirit of honest reflection?
quote:
I'm not sure who your god is (Satan maybe? yes/no???)
Do I have to have a god? Satan? That's funny. LOL.
------------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Skandoggy, posted 12-17-2002 3:12 PM Skandoggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 6:49 PM John has replied
 Message 42 by Skandoggy, posted 12-18-2002 12:14 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 230 (27088)
12-17-2002 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky
12-17-2002 6:49 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
John I'm not sure of your interpertation of this particular piece of scripture, it's one I've heard before and wondered about.
Take a look at this page:
NCCG.ORG - NEFILIM - Understanding the True Origins of Mormonism - Chapter 25 - The Fallen Angels
I said angels, but the word actually means "fallen ones" which tracks with what I was told as a kid.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 6:49 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 8:26 PM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 230 (27122)
12-18-2002 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by funkmasterfreaky
12-17-2002 3:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
This is interesting, we as Christians get ridiculed for taking the bible too literally quite often. However when it is more convenient for the disbeliever to reverse the process to suit their argument that's okay too.
Lets think about this. The Bible is the word of God. Thus, we must accept what it teaches. You've got two choices here, as I see it. You can take the Bible dead literally. In which case you end up crashing into mountains of conflicting data, internal and external to the Bible. Option two is to accept that the Bible is a metaphor. The problem is that once you admit to metaphor, you may as well admit that the Bible is not reliable. Once it becomes open to interpretation by humans it becomes subject to error, or rather, it becomes incapable of preventing error. It becomes a guessing game, and who needs divine guidance that is subject to our whims?
quote:
I still maintain that the lifespan of man shortened very significantly and very quickly.
So God didn't mean what he said then? God had to ramp down slowly? God did not say he would shorten the human lifespan quickly and significantly. He said NO MORE THAN 120 YEARS for RIGHT NOW.
quote:
I don't see the argument here.
Of course not, since to admit that the Bible is wrong here would through doubt on the rest of it too.
quote:
Sorry I mean no offence, I think in this case, that this is being combed with a ridiculously fine comb. The same one that when it passes other areas seems to become much more course.
Fine comb? God says 120 years. We find out that someone lived 120.5 years. To complain about that would be using a find toothed comb. You have a discrepancy of, at its extreme, 3.641666667 times the length of the longest lifespan God said he'd allow.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 3:20 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by shilohproject, posted 12-22-2002 10:15 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 230 (27365)
12-19-2002 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Skandoggy
12-18-2002 12:14 PM


Isn't this the height of childish. Are you, by any chance, ten?
Why do you think these games are good for your cause?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 12-19-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Skandoggy, posted 12-18-2002 12:14 PM Skandoggy has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 230 (27765)
12-24-2002 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by shilohproject
12-22-2002 10:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
I have heard it preached many times that this refered to "spiritual" death, which would allow for the obvious contradiction between the threat/promise and the recorded story, which includes a life for Adam & Eve much longer than midnight of that day.
I have also heard this preached.
quote:
Of course, that is not what the text says. What are your thoughts?
Early Judaism had no strong concept of a spiritual world. The religion was very much earthly. Punishment is always done on earth to the guilty and his children. So claiming that it means "spiritual death" is a big stretch. It is very far out of the context of the religion.
The story is a power play between two gods that has been cleaned up to give the impression of monotheism.
Have a look at the definition of the Hebrew word used for 'death.'
04191 muwth {mooth}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1169; v
AV - die 424, dead 130, slay 100, death 83, surely 50, kill 31,
dead man 3, dead body 2, in no wise 2, misc 10; 835
1) to die, kill, have one executed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to die
1a2) to die (as penalty), be put to death
1a3) to die, perish (of a nation)
1a4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
1b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
1c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death
1d) (Hophal)
1d1) to be killed, be put to death
1d1a) to die prematurely
Do you see any spiritual aspects?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by shilohproject, posted 12-22-2002 10:15 PM shilohproject has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:23 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 230 (28127)
12-30-2002 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 12:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
I'm not sure about the two-god power-play. It seems to me more likely that we have two traditions being combined to give each side a say in the matter.
As you point out, there is evidence that two traditions were combined. What I was refering to was the interplay between the Hebrew God and the Serpent in the Garden. Very similar stories occur in myths from the area.
------------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:23 PM shilohproject has not replied

  
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