Sodom and Lot, historicity and plausibility of Genesis 19

Mr Selective Quoting is at least accurate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...This sentence rather undermines your claim that homosexuality is a choice. You also appear to misrepresent this paper.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...
The sentence you quote was a premise of the research (not its conclusion) and you seem to have cause and effect the wrong way round: Which leads on to the question to what degree the mental (and possibly physical) health problems reported in the last two papers are a consequence of social rejection and prejudice rather than homosexuality per se. {Shortened display form of 2 URL's, to restore page width to normal. - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-21-2005 06:58 PM

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you failed to answer the question. what happens to the town in the story of baucis and philemon?

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Sorry, I am not going to play this game - I have already debunked this more than once. The trivia of the town being destroyed does NOT mean that that was an important issue to the audience or the teller of the tale. Ancient mythology is not much like our modern mindset; as Levi-Strauss argued, early peoples engage in bricolage when constructing myths, not cause-and-effect analysis.

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by my guest. check it yourself. i told where you can find such a list

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For two weeks you have been maintaining there were thousands. You have had 2 weekends in which you could have popped down your local library to get that list, and have failed to do so. Once again, I am not your personal assistant - I do not do your research work for you. Furthermore, I'm not going to go on a snipe hunt. I have things to do with my time.This is an irrational position and you know it. I am not obliged to accept your nonsense theories until and unless they are proven - YOU are advancing the claim, YOU have to provide the evidence.

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Q1.1. (Gods/saints in disguise reward hospitality and punish inhospitality).

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Yes, and how many entries are there on this list, 1? Does Stith Thompson's Authority exceed any contradiction? Claiming that one researcher made a list of something does not prove the existence of the things listed. Show me the evidence, please.At least people making claims to the bible are actually able to show how the book allegedly supports their arguments. Your argument is in worse shape: that some book somewhere supports you, but you can't even show how. This amounts to argument by rumour.Show your evidence or withdraw your claim.This message has been edited by contracycle, 03-21-2005 09:59 AM

Oh and BTW, I see Thompsons work dates to 1938, updated in 1961. So, even if it contained what you say it contains, you would still be working with 40-year old data. This does not mean it is inherently wrong but it may have course been superceded - anthropology has moved on.

yes, but new ancient literature has not been written.now, keep in mind this is an index.

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Q1. Hospitality rewared--opposite punished. Irish mtyh: *Cross.
   C282. Tabu: refusing a feast.

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Q1.1. Gods (saints) in disguise reward hospitality and punish inhospitality. Usually the hospitable person is poor, the inhospitable rich. *Types 750AB, 751, 750*; *BP II 210, III 206; Aarne FFC XXIII 46; *Dh II 117; *Fb "Sankt Peder" III 164b, "rig" III 55a. --

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Spanish: Espinosa II No. 86, III Nos. 168-171, Espinosa Jr. No. 181;
India: *Thompson-Balys;
Buddhist myth: Malalasekera II 656;
Japanese: Ikeda.

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   A180. Gods in relation to mortals.
   K1811. Gods (saints) in disguise visit mortals.
   L143. Poor man surpasses rich.
   Q42.3. Generosity to saint (god) in disguise rewarded.
   Q45. Hospitality rewarded.
   Q141. Reward: man's cows magically multiply.
   Q286.1. Uncharitableness to holy person punished.
   Q292.1. Inhospitality to saint (god) punished.
   V200. Sacred Persons.

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Q42.3. Generosity to saint (god) in disguise rewarded. (Cf. Q1, Q45.1.) Alphabet Nos. 297, 344, 365; Scala Celi 39b No. 222;

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Irish: Beal XXI 304, 325, O'Suilleabhain 2, 68;
Spanish: Keller, Espinosa II No. 86, III Nos. 168-171, Espinosa Jr. Nos. 83-85, 181f., 210;
India: *Thompson-Balys;
Buddhist myth: Malalasekera I 485;
Chinese: Graham.

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Q45. Hospitality rewarded. Scala Celi 51b, 81b, 83b 104b, 152b, 158a, 164b Nos. 290, 466, 477, 569, 839, 884, 926; Alphabet No. 368;

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Irish myth: *Cross;
Swiss: Jegerlehner Overwallis 323 No. 95;
Spanish: Espinosa III No. 152, Espinosa Jr. Nos. 181f.;
Italian Novella: *Rotunda;
India: Thompson-Balys;
Buddhist myth: Malalasekera II 455, 989;
Africa (Loango): Pechul-Loesche 110,
(Kaffir): Kidd 251 No. 13,
(Ekoi): Talbot 208.

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   A2222. Animal characteristics reward for hospitality.
   B391. Animal grateful for food.
   K1812.4. Incognito king is given hospitality by fisherman.
   P320. Hospitality. Relation of host and guest.
   Q1. Hospitality rewarded--opposite punished.
   Q111.2. Riches as reward for hospitality.
   Q152.1. Hospitality of a citizen saves a city from destruction.
   Q292. Inhospitality punished.

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Q45.1 Angels entertained unawares. Hospitality to disguised saint (angel, god) rewarded. (Cf. Q42.3.) *Dh II 133ff.; *bin Gorion Born Judas² I 366; Scala Celi 39b, 81b Nos. 221, 464, 468; Alphabet Nos. 167, 365, 439; Herbert III 392; Literary treatment: Lowell "Vision of Sir Launfal". --

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Irish: Cross, O'Suilleabhain 90;
Lithuanian: Balys Index No. 752B*;
Spanish: Keller, Espinosa Jr. Nos. 181f.;
Greek: Pauly-Wissowa s.v. "Baukis";
India: *Thompson-Balys;
Buddhist myth: Malalasekera II 35;
Japanese: Anesaki 251f.;
N. A. Indian (Maliseet): Mechling JAFL XXVI 219ff.;
African (Konnoh): Williams 140.

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   K1811. Gods (saints) in disguise visit mortals.
   Q145.1. Miraculously long life as reward.
   V235. Mortal visited by angel
   W11.4.1. Brahman steals to feed quests (deities).

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Q45.1.1. Three Nephites give blessings as reward for hospitality. (Mormon tradition.) **H. Lee, The Three Nephites: the Substance and Significance of the Legend in Folklore (Albuquerque, New Mexico, 1949).

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Q45.1.2. King refuses to invite Patrick to feast. Poor man kills only cow and uses his only measure of meal to entertain Patrick. Patrick blesses his wife and son. Irish myth: Cross.

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Q45.1.3. Hospitality to saint repaid: neither he nor his posterity will ever be hurt by venomous creatures. *Loomis White Magic 131.

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Q111.2. Riches as reward (for hospitality). (Cf. Q45.) Irish myth: Cross.

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Q152. City saved from disaster as reward.

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Jewish: *Neuman;
Chinese: Graham;
Hawaii: Beckwith Myth 63, 70.

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   M10. Irrevocable judgements.
   M203. Kings promise irrevocable.

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Q152.1 Hospitality of a citizen saves a city from destruction. (Cf. Q45.) Alphabet No. 368.

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Q286. Uncharitableness punished. (Cf. Q494.1.1, Q552.3.0.1, Q574.2, Q585.1, Q595.3.)

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Irish: O'Suilleabhain 93, 129, 131, Beal XXI 330, 337;
Spanish: Espinosa Jr. Nos. 186, 202-04;
Swiss: Jegerlehner Oberwallis 300 No. 16;
India: *Thompson-Balys;
Chinese: Werner 255;
Africa (Ila, Rhodesia): Smith and Dale II 415 No. 14.

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   D444.1. Transformation: money of the hard-hearted to scorpions.
   L435. Self-righteousness punished.
   V420. Reward of the uncharitable.

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Q286.1. Uncharitableness to holy person punished. (Cf. Q1.1, Q553.3.5, Q556.11, Q589.1.) Type 766*; *Pauli (ed. Bolte) No. 329;

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Irish: *Cross; O'Suilleabhain 22, Beal XXI 307;
Spanish: Espinosa JR. Nos. 183f., 202-04;
Hawaii: Beckwith Myth 192.

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Q292. Inhospitality punished. (Cf. P320, Q45, Q551.6.7, Q556.7, W158.)

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Irish: *Cross, O'Suilleabhain 53;
Finnish: Kalevala rune 33;
Swiss: Jegerlehner Oberwallis 323 No. 94;
Spanish Exempla: Keller;
Jewish: *Neuman;
India: Thompson-Balys;
Buddhist myth: Malalasekera II 824;
Hawaii: Beckwith Myth 174;
Africa (Wachaga): Gutman 93,
(Loango): Pechul-Loesche 110.

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Q292.1. Inhospitality to saint (god) punished. (Cf. Q1.1) *Loomis White Magic 101;

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Lithuanian: Balys Index No. 772*;
Russian: Andrejev No. 7961*;
Swiss: Jegerlehner Oberwallis 295 No. 13;
Spanish: Espinosa Jr. No. 181;
Greek: Fox 20, 94;
India: Thompson-Balys;
S. A. Indian (Chincha): Alexander Lat. Am. 231.

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Q292.3. Abuse of hospitality punished. Lithuanian: Balys Index No. 3728.

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Q551.6.7. Magic sickness (death) as punishment for inhospitality. (Cf. Q292.) Irish myth: *Cross.

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Q556.7. Curse for inhospitality. (Cf. Q292.) Irish myth: *Cross.

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Q556.7.1. Curse for enforced hospitality. Irish myth: *Cross.

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P320. Hospitality. Relation of host and guest. Irish myth: *Cross.

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   A547. Culture hero dispenses food and hospitality.
   A1598. Origin of customs of hospitality.
   C874. Tabu: breaking up revelry before its end.
   C282. Tabu: refusing a feast.
   C616. Tabu: feasting visitors at certain place
   C901.1.4. Tabu imposed by host.
   D2105.5. Saint causes fish to come out of lake to satisfy guests for whom he has not food.
   F151.0.0. Hospitable host entertains adventurer on way to otherworld.
   F361.1.2. Fairy takes revenge for not being offered food (drink).
   H509.1. Guest of convent is given choice of nuns.
   H1564. Test of hospitality.
   J21.9.1. Guest stays so long that host gives him black bread instead of white.
   J1183. Execution escaped by invoking laws of hospitality.
   J1341. Retort from underfed servant.
   J1561. Inhospitality repaid.
   J1563. Treatment of difficult guests.
   K1812.4. Incognito king is given hospitality by fishermen.
   K2326.1. Hosts frighten guest by disguising as ghosts.
   K2294. Treacherous host.
   M158. Vow never to refuse food to any man.
   P634. Feasts.
   Q42.1.3. Excessive hospitality causes cheiftan to become poor.
   Q45. Hospitality rewarded.
   Q111.2. Riches as reward for hospitality.
   Q292. Inhospitality punished.
   Q292.3. Abuse of hospitality punished.
   Q556.7. Curse for inhospitality.
   T281. Sex hospitality.
   T331.2. Knight unsuccessfully tempted by host's wife.
   W12. Hospitality as a virtue.
   W151.2.2 Hospitable man impoverished by greedy guests.
   W158. Inhospitality.

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P322.2. Guest in disguise or under false name. (Cf. K1831.) *Boberg.

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W12. Hospitality as a virtue. (Cf. P320.) Irish myth: *Cross.

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W12.1. Man (king) prefers death to loss of reputation for hospitality. Irish myth: *Cross.

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W12.2. Man looks for strangers so as to bestow hospitality on them. Jewish: Nueman.

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W158. Inhospitality. (Cf. Q292.) Irish myth: *Cross.

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V420. Reward of the uncharitable.
   Q286. Uncharitableness punished.

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V430. Charity--miscellaneous motifs.

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Q585.1. Man refuses to give to charity: his property disappears. (Cf. Q286, Q595.3.)

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Irish myth: *Cross;
India: Thompson-Balys.

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   v421. Shipman refuses alms: ship turned to stone.

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T281. Sex Hospitality. Host gives his wife (daughter) to his guest as bed companion. *Encyc. Religion Ethics s.v. "Adultery";

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Irish: MacCulloch Celtic 149, *Cross;
Welsh: MacCulloch Celtic 488;
English: Wells 60 (Syre Gowene and the Carle of Carelyle);
Icelandic: *Boberg.

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   A591. Semi-divine hero granted free access to men's wives.
   F302.1.1. Mortals given to fairy mistress during visit to fairyland.
   P14.13. King gives his own wife as reward.
   P325. Host surrenders his wife to his guest.
   T161. Jus primae noctis.
   T331.2. Knight unsuccessfully tempted by host's wife.
   T484. Maidservant given to lover's companion as bed-partner.

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J1561. Inhospitality repaid.

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Irish myth: *Cross;
India: Thompson-Balys.

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   H594. Inhospitality reproved enigmatically.
   J1341. Retort from underfed servant (child).

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H1564. Test of hospitality.

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English: Wells 64 (Avowynge of King Arthur etc.);
Irish myth: *Cross;
Jewish: Neuman.

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   P320. Hospitality. Relation of host and guest.

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K1811. Gods (saints) in disguise visit mortals. *Types 330A, 750A, 751, 752A, 753, 768, 785, 791; *BP II 210, III 198, 451; *Dh II 129; *Rohde Der Griechische Roman 451 n.; Fb "Sankt Peder" III 164a;

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United States (Mormon): **Lee, Hector, "The Three Nephites: the Substance and Significance of the Legend in Folklore" (Albuquerque, 1949), "The Three Nephites: a Disappearing Legend" Am. Notes and Queries II 35-38, Hand, "The Three Nephites" Am. Notes and Queries II 56-57, Fife, "The Legend of the Three Nephites among the Mormons" JAFL LIII 1-49;
Irish: O'Suilleabhain 22, Beal XXI 307, *Cross;
Icelandic: MacCulloch Eddic 80, *Boberg;
Breton: Sbillot Incidents s.v. "Pierre";
Spanish Exempla: Keller;
Italian Novella: Rotunda;
Greek: Fox 200, Grote I 36, 63, 88, 103, 160;
Jewish: *Neuman, *bin Gorion Born Judas I 176f., 374;
India: *Thompson-Balys;
Hindu: Tawney I 370;
Buddhist myth: Malalasekera I 19, 318, 473, 477, 648, 840, II 471, 504, 519, 572, 602, 1079, 1182, 1258, 1353, 1366;
Chinese: Eberhard FFC CXX 1f., 169;
Japanese: Ikeda;
Hawaii: Beckwith Myth 69;
S. A. Indian (Inca): Rowe BBAE CXLIII (2) 316,
(Chamacoso): Mtraux MAFLS XL 28,
(Huaroichiri): ibid. 158;
Africa (Ekoi): Talbot 177;
West Indies: Flowers 545.

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   A120.0.1. God as a shapeshifter.
   A171.0.3. God descends from heaven.
   A180. God in relation to mortals.
   A181. God serves as menial on earth.
   A189.11. Mortal son adopted by god.
   D42. God in guise of mortal.
   F32. God visits earth.
   F237. Fairies in disguise.
   F393. Fairy visits among mortals.
   H1573.2.2. Saint tested by visit of deity in disguise.
   K1132. Peter recieves the blows twice.
   N810. Supernatural helpers.
   Q1.1. Gods (saints) in disguise reward hospitality and punish inhospitality.
   Q25. Reward for carrying Christ across a stream. Christ is in the form of a child.
   Q66.1. Humility before said (god) in disguise rewarded.
   Q45.1. Angels entertained unawares. Hospitality to disguised saint (angel, god) rewarded.
   T53.1. Incognito prophet as matchmaker.
   V200. Sacred persons.
   V220. Saints.
   V227. Saints have divine visitors.
   V235. Mortal visited by angel.

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K1811.1. Gods (spirits) disguised as beggars. Test hospitality.

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Lithuanian: Balys Index No. 770*, 930A*;
India: *Thomspon-Balys.

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   Q286. Uncharitableness punished.
   Q292.1. Inhospitality to saint (god) punished.

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K1812.1. Incognito king helped by humble man. Gives reward. Type 952; *BP III 450; Child V 67;

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Italian Novella: *Rotunda;
India: *Thompson-Balys.

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   N836. King as helper.
   P15.1.1. Disguised king taught courtesy by peasant.

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no, you have not. you have side-stepped the issue.what happens to the town? why? these stories aren't exactly long. i don't suspect they were writting filler. how do you ignore the fact that the entire freakin town is leveled because they were mean to guests?also, i thought it was nice that it showed up in that list. it's called a hyperbole. look up what i means. i engage in them regularly. now you can see, there's a lot of similar myths, if not a lot that are exactly the same. yes, and i don't really consider it a huge priority to jump down to my library just to own you on a message board because you're too ignorant to listen to everyone else here that disagrees with you. you're the one proposing a position contrary to an understanding the story that is the current academic mainstream. the burden of proof is on you, buddy.but while i'm here, anything else you want me to look up for you? six specific ones, actually, that fit the pattern. although lot is not on it: his hospitality is not rewarded per se.now, on the related topics i've posted, as you will, well, there's a lot. knock yourself out. and i'm sure you'll extend that argument here. see, before, i gave a book reference. now that you have probably a few hundred references from that book, i'll have to go and look up every single one of those myths and folktales so we can debated about how they just didn't think about these things ever. i'm sorry, i'm not writing a freakin thesis on this, to defend the academic norm against someone who hasn't bothered to do any research themselves. i could spent the rest of my life writing about these, but frankly i'm just not that interested.now, you've lost. go away.

Dear Berberry; Here reread the part that was posted already. My point wasn't that change is easy or universal, just that it is possible. I couldn't have but better words into your mouth to prove my point if I tried. Yes I agree that is probably part of the problem. Yes it is a shame that people can't learn to agree to disagree. Everyone should learn to treat others with dignity, but is unlikely to happen since you can't even seem to be able do it yourself.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott AndersonThis message has been edited by wmscott, 03-21-2005 04:38 PM

Dear PaulK; The fact that change is possible, proves that it is a matter of choice. Some were able to change and they changed because they made a decision to do so. As you can see from Berberry's post, he is what he is, because he has no desire to change. Change is of course, pretty much impossible for those who don't want to change.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

in SOME but NOT MOST.just like some people give up cigarettes cold-turkey just wanting to. that doesn't mean that cigarettes are not addictive. or that people who do smoke just don't wanna give it up badly enough.but you're being condescending and hateful of a specific member of this forum. one christian to another: mind your manners. judge not, unless you want to be judged yourself. if it IS a personal choice, then you have no right to say anything about it.

Whew!Finally glad to see some christian support of heterosexual anal and oral sex........right on!! Very effective birth control methods.

If it were a simple matter of choice, then therapy would not be required at all. After all anyone who was happy being homosexual would not seek therapy to change that orientation in the first place.So even AFTER choosing not to be homosexual, therapy is needed and even that is not usually a complete success in changing sexual orientation. And for some patients choice AND therapy is not enough.Surely you cannot maintain that this paper indicates that homosexuality is a choice.

there is no way that song of solomon does not discuss oral sex. thank god lol.

you need to get another job. that's just simply way too much time wasted on typing and formatting. i mean really. besides. thai food.

wmscottSince this thread was about Sodom, etc.Someone asked you why an entire town of homosexuals decided to have "intercourse" with Lot's concubine? Did I miss your response, or did you not answer?The difficulty with individuals like you is that you get painted into a corner by attempting to attribute every sexual act you consider "bad" onto homosexuals....last time I checked heterosexuals were avid at:anal sex
oral sex
s&mto list a few, so what is it that you are attempting to speak for god about and attribute to homosexuals?Your attempts to use even more modern translations to "better understand" are self-serving to say the least and merely shift you further from the truth.

wmscott writes me:

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The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year.

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Of course people can change for short periods of time. I don't believe a year is anywhere near long enough to determine if a lifelong change has taken place.There are certainly gay people who worry that they're going to hell because people who believe in silly fairy stories like you manage to convince them to believe in those same silly fairy stories. It should be no surprise that there are plenty of dumb gay people just like there are plenty of dumb straight people.Usually it's a non-thinking member of the family who manages to convince these vulnerable gays to go for "help", sometimes under threat of being disowned. But the change is never permanent.

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My point wasn't that change is easy or universal, just that it is possible.

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Possible, yes. Particularly if the person is actually bisexual, not homosexual. Bisexuals, just like anyone else, have the capacity to settle down with one person, which could just as well be a member of the opposite sex as it could a member of the same sex.But there's absolutely no need to change, other than to satisfy the egos of believers of silly fairy stories.

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I couldn't have but better words into your mouth to prove my point if I tried.

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You made the stupid statement that gays don't take responsibility for their actions. My words prove your point? How so?

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Everyone should learn to treat others with dignity, but is unlikely to happen since you can't even seem to be able do it yourself.

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How is a statement like "gays don't take responsibility for their actions" treating others with dignity? You are incapable of treating anyone you don't approve of with dignity. Your bigoted attitudes won't allow it. So why don't you try to change?

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

hopefully it'll end this debate. i mean, i know it won't, but i'm done. randal: "you know caitlin, you and me have something in common."
caitlin: "oh yeah, what's that?"
randal: "we both eat chinese."
caitlin: "dick."
randal: "exactly."sorry, thought it was oddly appropriate for the thread. on a similar topic, And the LORD said, "thou shalt swallow."