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Author Topic:   Sodom and Lot, historicity and plausibility of Genesis 19
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1598 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 151 of 213 (192717)
03-20-2005 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by macaroniandcheese
03-20-2005 3:52 AM


Re: That is what God requires of us, that we repent and change.
what happened to love your neighbor as yourself? what happened to forgiveness?
oh, because that's only for people who have honestly repented, not people who are living in sin!
also, what happened to "judge not."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-20-2005 3:52 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 152 of 213 (192732)
03-20-2005 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by macaroniandcheese
03-20-2005 3:52 AM


Amen!
I stopped going to church and hanging around large groups of Christians because they were a bad influence.
Much happier now.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-20-2005 3:52 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 153 of 213 (192735)
03-20-2005 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by macaroniandcheese
03-20-2005 3:52 AM


Re: That is what God requires of us, that we repent and change.
Dear Brennakimi;
You have been proceeding from a false assumption, I am not what you apparently think I am. I have let it go because it is off topic and well people make up their own minds anyway sometimes regardless of the evidence or the lack there of. Here is quote from something I wrote.
However considering the fact that so many of mankind's problems have a religious cause due in large part to the multitude of conflicting religions in the world today, a little more specific information is needed to avoid wasting one's time and possibly even one's life on a course that may literally turn out to be a dead end. Pointing out some basic Bible teachings will be helpful, since those who would gather followers after themselves never really follow the word of God, they always end up following the word of man. Some basic guidance is certainly needed, for far too many people today the Bible is a mysterious book they are completely unacquainted with and many of the things people have been told the Bible teaches are actually contrary to the word of God. There is such a total disagreement over what the Bible teaches that one has a better chance of receiving sound legal advice in a shoe store, than receiving a biblically correct answer from a random Christian religion. Clearly one has to read the book for one self and discern whether the would be guides are even following God's word. All Christian religions claim to follow the Bible and most claim all their doctrines are based on scripture. But it doesn't take much effort to blow these paper boats right out of the water. Some Christian religions are so far removed from what the Bible really teaches that they are Christian in name only. Many have deviated so far from what Christians are supposed to be, that they have given Christianity itself a bad name. The history of some of these religions is a violent history written in blood. This turning away from the right course and following a path so evil that it brings reproach on all who would follow Christ, was foretold in the Bible. "In the past there were also false prophets among the people, just as you also will have false teachers among you. They will introduce their destructive views, disowning the very Master who redeemed them, and bringing swift destruction on their own heads. They will gain many adherents to their dissolute practices, through whom the way of truth will be brought into disrepute. In their greed for money they will trade on your credulity with sheer fabrications." 2 Peter 2:1-3 (REB)
Looking around the world today at the conduct of many so called Christian religions and their followers, we see this scripture is certainly being fulfilled to the letter. From the hypocrisy and the immoral conduct of individual Christians to the evil acts of many major religions in shedding blood in wars they have condoned or sanctioned and sometimes even caused. From the immoral to the evil, many have done much to darken the name of Christ. Clearly one has to be extremely carefully about embracing a religion that seems to be following the Bible and looks righteous, but really may not be what it appears. "Such people are sham apostles, confidence tricksters masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder! Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light, so it is easy enough for his agents to masquerade as agents of good. But their fate will match their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (REB)
When you follow someone or join a group, you have also accepted part of the responsibility for their actions. If we don't approve of the group's actions and yet remain a member, we are still giving them our support and are partly to blame for anything they may do. So it is very important to know how to find out whether a religion is actually following the Bible or not. The quickest and easiest way to spot Christian religions that have obviously taken a wrong turn, is to look at their actions. Christ said we could judge a tree by its fruits. Looking at the historic actions and present day conduct of some religions, we see many things that are in clear contradiction with Christian principles. This simple test would eliminate most so called Christian religions from consideration.
To pick out the truth, or the one religion that actually follows the Bible, will take a more detailed investigation. To be true followers of Christ, a religion's teachings must be in harmony with the Bible. All Christian religions claim their teachings are based on the Bible, but a close look reveals blatant contradictions.
I also don't hate homosexuals or any one else for that matter, I regard that type of hate a waste of one's mind and is harmful like acid that sours a person's personality.
But I do follow the biblical command to hate what is bad.
(Amos 5:14-15) . . ."'Search for what is good, and not what is bad, to the end that YOU people may keep living; and that thus Jehovah the God of armies may come to be with YOU, just as YOU have said. Hate what is bad, and love what is good,"
(Psalm 97:10) "O YOU lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad."
(Proverbs 8:13) "The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad."
(Romans 12:9) "Abhor what is wicked, cling to what is good."
Hating what is bad, means hating sinful acts and conduct, it does not mean hating people, rather they are to be shown love and mercy.
(Jude 23) "But continue showing mercy to others, doing so with fear, while YOU hate even the inner garment that has been stained by the flesh."
The reason why we need to hate bad things, is because God hates them and those to continue to do such things will not inherit the kingdom.
(Luke 13:23-24) "Lord, are those who are being saved few?" He said to them: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,"
(Luke 13:27-28) "'I do not know where YOU are from. Get away from me, all YOU workers of unrighteousness!' There is where [YOUR] weeping and the gnashing of [YOUR] teeth will be, when YOU see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside."
Of course those who do lawless deeds, includes those who claim to serve Jesus and yet do bad things.
(Matthew 7:21-24) "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. "Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass."
As Jesus stated, we need to not just hear his sayings, we have to do them, we need to live by them and not do bad things. If we continue to practice the things the Bible condemns, we will not inherit the kingdom. Since that is what is required of us, it would be unloving not to tell those who are doing such things that they are in danger.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-20-2005 3:52 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 03-20-2005 11:45 AM wmscott has not replied
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 154 of 213 (192744)
03-20-2005 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by berberry
03-19-2005 1:19 PM


Re: Meet Mr. Stupid
Dear Berberry;
I'm gay and I can tell you that I didn't make any goddamned choice. You right-wing christian idiots can only justify your bigotry by making it seem that gays have made a choice when the fact is that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
You wanna show some evidence for this stupid claim, or will you just admit that you're stupid? I doubt you'll do either, but then what more can one expect from a dolt like you?
Actualy I am not a "right-wing christian" while the "idiot" part is often a matter of debate.
Yes homosexuality is a matter of choice and people can and have changed their orination. The following is a quote from the abstract for a scientific paper on people changing their sexual orientation from same sex to heterosexual, so it is possible to change. Since it is possible to change, it is a matter of choice.
The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year.
Link to paper:
While there maybe some inherited factors that can predispose one towards a homosexual orientation, there are important environmental factors that effect the out come. Any environmental effect is a matter of choice, in that it is not "in our genes" and can be controlled.
Several childhood factors are reported to be associated with a homosexual orientation in men,
Link to paper:
Being homosexual or bisexual is not healthy and is bad for one's mental health.
International epidemiological studies demonstrate that gay and bisexual males are four times more likely to report a serious suicide attempt than their heterosexual counterparts.
Link to paper:
CONCLUSION: The development of an homosexual identity is a process connected with serious health hazards related to both physical and mental health.
Link to paper:
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by berberry, posted 03-19-2005 1:19 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2005 9:05 AM wmscott has not replied
 Message 159 by berberry, posted 03-20-2005 12:56 PM wmscott has replied
 Message 161 by Parasomnium, posted 03-21-2005 3:46 AM wmscott has not replied
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 03-21-2005 7:02 AM wmscott has replied
 Message 178 by Taqless, posted 03-21-2005 10:46 PM wmscott has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3711 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 155 of 213 (192748)
03-20-2005 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by wmscott
03-20-2005 8:40 AM


Reparative Therapy
quote:
Yes homosexuality is a matter of choice and people can and have changed their orination.
You consider it a choice when someone is altered by therapy?
Excerpt from article
This study tested the hypothesis that some individuals whose sexual orientation is predominantly homosexual can, with some form of reparative therapy, become predominantly heterosexual.
I'd be interested to see what would happen if the hypotesis was reversed.
I don't feel that your articles really show that homosexuality isn't naturally occuring or that it is a conscious choice. All you've shown is how our natural instincts or tendencies can be changed by our environment.
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 03-20-2005 09:25 AM

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by wmscott, posted 03-20-2005 8:40 AM wmscott has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1598 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 156 of 213 (192755)
03-20-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by purpledawn
03-20-2005 7:25 AM


Re: Amen!
I stopped going to church and hanging around large groups of Christians because they were a bad influence.
what would jesus do? they that are whole have no need of the physician.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2005 7:25 AM purpledawn has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 213 (192783)
03-20-2005 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by wmscott
03-20-2005 7:51 AM


Re: That is what God requires of us, that we repent and change.
How do you feel about shrimp?
How do you feel about woolrich garments?
Do you allow your wife to go out when she's unclean?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by wmscott, posted 03-20-2005 7:51 AM wmscott has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4182 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 158 of 213 (192791)
03-20-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by wmscott
03-20-2005 7:51 AM


Re: That is what God requires of us, that we repent and change.
whether someone is condemned or not, however, is not your business but god's. pursue him, not your neighbors. you are just as lost as they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by wmscott, posted 03-20-2005 7:51 AM wmscott has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 213 (192801)
03-20-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by wmscott
03-20-2005 8:40 AM


Re: Meet Mr. Stupid
wmscott writes me:
quote:
Actualy I am not a "right-wing christian"
You're no better and certainly no more intelligent than the typical right-wing christian.
quote:
Yes homosexuality is a matter of choice and people can and have changed their orination.
That cannot be proved. The paper you linked is no good; all it says is that some people experienced "at least some minimal change" in orientation. It's no surprise that you can scare people into acting straight. You still can't change their orientation.
Besides, all of the nonsense about changing orientation is based on the premise that a person would want to change their orientation. I don't want to change mine, because you see unlike you I don't give a flying fuck what the goddamn bible says. Why on earth should I care about a collection of pre-historic fairy stories like the bible?
What in hell does "gender noncoformity" have to do with anything? Here's a quote from the bullshit you linked:
Several childhood factors are reported to be associated with a homosexual orientation in men, including gender nonconformity and rejection by parents and peers.
Guess what? I don't act like a girl and my mother and father both love me (although I'll admit to problems with my father beginning when I was in my mid-20s due to his association with right-wing christians. Those problems have gotten much worse recently since dolts like him now have near-absolute political power). You've never known a sissy straight man? You need to get out of your goddamn church once in a while. There's life going on out here.
You quote:
International epidemiological studies demonstrate that gay and bisexual males are four times more likely to report a serious suicide attempt than their heterosexual counterparts.
Given the fact that homosexuals are marginalized and demonized by mentally-challenged right-wingers who refuse to recognize the civil rights and human dignity of anyone they don't approve of it should be no surprise that gays are somewhat more likely to attempt suicide.
You know, there are still a number of diseases and mental problems that African-Americans are more prone to than whites. Even their life-expectancy is shorter. Should they be trying to change themselves into white people?
As for:
CONCLUSION: The development of an homosexual identity is a process connected with serious health hazards related to both physical and mental health.
why did you leave out the last part?
Most adolescents are not given adequate support because heterosexuality is considered the norm in most cultures.
Exactly. They aren't supported by their right-wing lunatic parents and society, so how can it be surprising that they suffer mentally? As for physically, well of course there are some right-wingers who actually go so far as to physically attack anyone who dares to live in a way they don't approve of. Hence, gays are prone to physical hazards that don't affect straights.
You really aren't able to read and comprehend more than a sentence at a time, are you?

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by wmscott, posted 03-20-2005 8:40 AM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4248 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 160 of 213 (192961)
03-21-2005 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by berberry
03-20-2005 12:56 PM


Re: Meet Mr. Stupid
Actually, from the wide-spread sexual abuse cases arising from the Catholic and Anglican churches through to sects like the Watchtower Society,I would have thought Christians would be the last to point the finger at anyone else on matters sexual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by berberry, posted 03-20-2005 12:56 PM berberry has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 161 of 213 (192968)
03-21-2005 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by wmscott
03-20-2005 8:40 AM


Re: Meet Mr. Stupid
wmscott writes:
Since it is possible to change, it is a matter of choice.
I was born bipedal. Nowadays, I'm not so sure whether I still like being bipedal that much anymore. Hopping around on one leg has its appeal after all, right?
Luckily, medical science has advanced to such a degree that I can now, at last, have one leg surgically removed. (I'm still wavering, so to speak, about which leg I am going to part with, though.)
I am greatly strengthened in my resolve by wmscott's assurance that, since it is possible to change, being bipedal is a matter of choice, as is becoming monopedal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by wmscott, posted 03-20-2005 8:40 AM wmscott has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 213 (192972)
03-21-2005 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by arachnophilia
03-19-2005 4:20 AM


quote:
he hasn't forgotten it; he's IGNORING it.
I have not ignored it, I have dealt with it. Your interpretation is mistaken and anachronistic.
Do I take it from the further absence of any evidence of the "thousands" of other "similar" myths that you now concede the point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 03-19-2005 4:20 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by arachnophilia, posted 03-21-2005 4:33 AM contracycle has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1598 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 163 of 213 (192980)
03-21-2005 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by contracycle
03-21-2005 3:53 AM


Do I take it from the further absence of any evidence of the "thousands" of other "similar" myths that you now concede the point?
actually, i was sort of thinking maybe you'd finally conceeded the point. why should i post more when you can't even seem to get the point of ONE?
I have not ignored it, I have dealt with it. Your interpretation is mistaken and anachronistic.
tell me. the town in the story. what happens to it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by contracycle, posted 03-21-2005 3:53 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by contracycle, posted 03-21-2005 6:11 AM arachnophilia has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 213 (192994)
03-21-2005 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by arachnophilia
03-21-2005 4:33 AM


quote:
tell me. the town in the story. what happens to it?
Becuase I aksed you for the list so I can check them myself. The error of interpretation you impose here is exactly the sort of thing I was worried about.
Tell me, the people in it, where they are shown to be personally culpuble?
And, even if I granted you this ONE example - which I do not, I reinforce, as your analysis is grossly anachronistic - then you would have just one similar myth to that of Sodom. And that would be wholly inadequate to claim that they were definitely, certainly, about one issue, that of hospitality, identificable from a recurrent pattern.
Which is why you claimed it was one of SERIES, of thousands you said. But it turns out there are not thousands. There's not even one. Your whole claim, in every detail, has been shown to be completely bogus. There is no pattern. There is no series. There is no body of worldwide myths concerning hospitality in this sense whatsoever.
I'm explaining this so you don't waste your time desperately defending the superficial similarities between the greek and biblical stories to the last ditch. The fact of the matter remains that you shot your mouth off without doing any research, and when provided with materials with which to check your assumptions, you reject them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by arachnophilia, posted 03-21-2005 4:33 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by arachnophilia, posted 03-21-2005 6:50 AM contracycle has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1598 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 165 of 213 (192997)
03-21-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by contracycle
03-21-2005 6:11 AM


you failed to answer the question. what happens to the town in the story of baucis and philemon?
we'll proceed from there.
Becuase I aksed you for the list so I can check them myself. The error of interpretation you impose here is exactly the sort of thing I was worried about.
by my guest. check it yourself. i told where you can find such a list.
added by edit: just to help you a little, here are the stith thompson NUMBERS: K1811. (Gods/saints in disguise visit mortals) and Q1.1. (Gods/saints in disguise reward hospitality and punish inhospitality).
now, the second bit i suspect is the one you're insisting just doesn't exist.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 03-21-2005 07:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by contracycle, posted 03-21-2005 6:11 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by contracycle, posted 03-21-2005 9:58 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 181 by contracycle, posted 03-22-2005 5:54 AM arachnophilia has not replied

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