Sodom and Lot, historicity and plausibility of Genesis 19

please.(rrhain, help?)

contracycle writes Arachnophilia:

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Thats nonsense - I have already told you that I have done my own search for hospitality myths and so forth, and all I found was people making this argument. Thats what makes me think it is an urban myth. And I am confident of my position because I have already used many myth archives on the net, and there should have been hits.

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Surely you haven't forgotten the story of Philemon and Baucis?EDIT: In checking further backward I see that the story has already been mentioned in this thread, so I apologize for jumping in. Still, the link might be useful since it has the story as I remember it from college.This message has been edited by berberry, 03-19-2005 02:26 AM

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he hasn't forgotten it; he's IGNORING it.he refuses to recognize that an entire township is destroyed at the end because they were not hospitable to travellers. he keeps telling me he's pointed out the differences, which just aren't there.i think i've disproven him on about every basis possible, but he won't give up.

he's a woman. even if he's a man, he's a woman. wwns?

Dear Crashfrog; They don't want to take responsibility for their actions. By defining it. (Romans 1:26-27) "That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error."Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Dear Arachnophilia; The Greek word 'pornos' occurs 10 times in the NT, and is rendered as fornicator or such by most Bible translations. Paul used the term 8 of those 10 times, and he clearly used the term to refer to fornicators. (Hebrews 13:4) "Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators [pornos] and adulterers." As I stated two posts back "Greek word "proskyneo" which is generally rendered as 'worship' or as obeisance'" in English, my point was and is, that you don't understand the importance of which word is used in translating proskyneo into English. If you want to play dictionary Bible translation, this is a very basic point and you don't even get it. The fact that you think that there is a conflict between these two verses highlights how little you know. Look at the Jesus' statement for the reason he shared the meal with 'sinners', to act as their spiritual physician, he wasn't there just to hang out with them. Jesus was talking about preaching the good news of the Kingdom to people who need to hear it. Paul was talking about 'brothers' or members of the Christian congregation who had become wicked in their conduct and had become bad associates. Paul was telling the congregation not to continue to associate with those in the congregation who practiced sinful conduct. Jesus was talking about witnessing to sinners so that they could become part of the congregation, while Paul was talking about the need to stop associating with those who were already in the congregation but had go back to acting like the world.Your 'conflicts' only exist in your mind because you don't understand what the Bible is talking about as demonstrated by the above example.The bible's clear condemnation of homosexuality shown by (Romans 1:27) "even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error." considering the fact that such conduct was viewed as sinful, even obscene, it is hard to conceive that Paul in listing sins at 1 Corinthians 6:9 & 1 Timothy 1:10 would only refer to only certain types of homosexual relationships. I will say again that your rendering is obviously wrong.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Even the ones that think Christianity is a pile of horseshit? Why would they give a damn about what your Bible says about it?That's the thing, you know. Not everybody believes in your God or your Bible. No, really. They don't. So why would they be trying to avoid a "responsibility" that they don't feel they have? It just doesn't make sense. Unless you're saying that everybody that doesn't believe in your God, which is the majority of people, is a liar?You didn't choose to be gay, did you? Why not? I asked you to. What would it take for you to make that choice?

Dear Rrhain; While the main focus of Jewish though on the sin of Sodom is on inhospitality, the reason for that seems to be a desire to avoid talking about things some didn't feel comfortable talking about. This following quote from a Jewish web site was informative on this tendency of avoidance."I pressed him and asked just what the Sodomites meant to do with the guests in Lot's abode and why he offered his daughters in exchange, I was met with evasion and a sudden change of subject. "It's all very complicated," on of Dad said, concluding the conversation. Matters sexual were not discussed in our home." Page not found - Temple IsraelApparently this Jewish avoidance of talking about the sexual nature of Sodom's sin and instead focusing on the inhospitality, has caused some to perhaps mistakenly believe that they didn't believe Sodom's sins included sexual sins. It is clear that at least part of the Jewish community of Jewish scholars believe that the sin of Sodom included homosexual acts as shown by the two rendering of Genesis 19:5 in the Torah."Bring them out to us, that we may be intimate with them" translation was taken from the JPS Tanakh. http://learn.jtsa.edu/topics/parashah/jpstext/vayera.shtml"Bring them out to us, that we may rape them." Parshah Summary Just a moment...Below is another quote from a Jewish site discussing the sins of sodom and once again focusing on their inhospitality, but while admitting their sin included sex."Within the narrative in Bereshit it would seem that sexual immorality is only part of the evil of Sodom. Contrary to popular usage it is also clear from the reading of the narrative that it is not homosexuality that is the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah (though Jerry Fallwell and others might disagree). The people of Sodom did demand that Lot (Abraham and Sarah's nephew) hand over the strangers in their house (actually messengers of God sent to tell Lot of the impending doom) so that "we may know them," which is clearly a sexual reference in terms of biblical Hebrew. However, what makes them sinful according to our Sages is not sexual desire or lust, but rather their desire to abuse and humiliate other human beings because they are strangers in their midst."
Forbidden First the Hebrew word used, 'yada' or in English 'know' can also have the meaning of knowing in the sexual sense as stated in Strong's definition for the word "lie by man" or to be known by a man. That is the usage used in Genesis 4:1 and in Genesis 19:5 "And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: "Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them."" or known them sexually. (Genesis 18:20) "The cry of complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy." (Genesis 13:13) "And the men of Sodom were bad and were gross sinners against Jehovah." The context in Genesis is that the Sodomites were guilty of extreme sinfulness, being "gross sinners against Jehovah". Their sinfulness was not merely a lack of hospitality, it clearly went far beyond that. Failure to show hospitality would be lack of a positive quality, their sinning against Jehovah clearly shows that their sin was a strong negative action. That is the context, so after dark when an all male crowd angrily demands that the two angels be brought out to them so they can "know them", it clearly has a sexual context and show by Lot's response. (Genesis 19:7-8) "Please, my brothers, do not act badly. Please, here I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with a man." Clearly the type of knowing that the Sodomites wanted to do was 'bad' and raping Lot's daughters would be a lessor sin. The Sodomite 'known" was clearly homosexual rape, it is obvious from the context in Genesis and is strongly supported by NT references. Paul used a Greek word for homosexual twice and did quite well condemning it even without it at Romans 1:26-27 "That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error." So if you were in any doubt about how God feels about same sex acts, he inspirited Paul to write that they are "contrary to nature" and "obscene" and those doing such things would receive "the full recompense, which was due for their error." Plus we have all the other scriptures which condemn men who lay with men. Over two hundred years ago same sex acts were a crime in most if not all christian countries, so you idea sounds more than half baked. To be frank, I don't believe you. You will need to back this up with some quotes and references. And even if you are right, it would only add to the sins of the Catholic Church. Yes I am not the "Head Honcho", I only work for him and I am just doing the job he gave me to do. (Ezekiel 3:18) "When I say to someone wicked, 'You will positively die,' and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand." (Acts 2:38) "Peter [said] to them: "Repent," You are misinterpreting Matthew 7:1-2, Jesus is speaking in the sense that we should not condemn others, looking down on them. He wasn't saying that we shouldn't warn people that they needed to repent of their bad acts. Jesus preached that people should repent and taught his disciples to teach the same message. (Matthew 4:17) "Jesus commenced preaching and saying: "Repent, YOU people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." So I am just doing my job telling you that you need to repent. I don't judge you, for I don't have the authority do say that you are going to be killed by Jesus for this or that sin. What I do have authority to say is that if you keep unrepentantly practicing this or that sin, you are at risk since those who practice such things are to die for their errors. In regard to your second post You just shot yourself in the foot big time. I have been arguing that orientation while possibly influenced by inherited factors, orientation is mainly effected by environmental factors and is a matter of personal choice. Identical twins have the same identical genetic code and inheritance, if their orientation was totally controlled by their genes, then they would both ALWAYS have the same orientation. Any rate less than 100% shows that the environment and personal choice are factors, that people do have a choice. So even the evidence you cite refutes your position. Sure there have been quite a number, I have read a number of life stories of people who have done just that. The accounts that I have at hand are copyrighted so I can post them, but I could e-mail them to you if you would like to see them. It is also stated in the Bible that people can stop being homosexual. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) "What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom. And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."" yet that is what some of YOU were" past tense, they no longer were what they were before, with the help of the holy sprit they changed. That is what God requires of us, that we repent and change. People who refuse to do so, do not inherit the kingdom.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

wmscott blathers:

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If being gay is a choice, then why are gay people so adamant that it isn't a choice?

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They don't want to take responsibility for their actions.

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Do you work at being this stupid or were you born that way? I'm gay and I can tell you that I didn't make any goddamned choice. You right-wing christian idiots can only justify your bigotry by making it seem that gays have made a choice when the fact is that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.You wanna show some evidence for this stupid claim, or will you just admit that you're stupid? I doubt you'll do either, but then what more can one expect from a dolt like you?

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Have to slip a "Keep calm and be nice" in here.Any responses to this message should go to the "General discussion of moderation procedures" topic, link below.Adminnemooseus

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kjv renders it like this:

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Hbr 13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

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there's nothing in that or any verse to indicate one translation over another. no, it's a very basic point that YOU don't get. it's the same word in greek. people have been rendering it two different ways in english for dogmatic reasons, but the meaning of the word hasn't changed -- because it's still the same word in greek. whoever did the english translation was uncomfortable with the notion of one man worshipping another, because that concept had taken on a new meaning in the religion. tell me, do you just make this stuff up as you go along? while true, these verses are still in conflict, because like above, they are the same concept. jesus is saying that we should be compassionate and friendly with the people who need us, and paul is saying we shouldn't hang around that sort. it's not "they get one chance, and we cut 'em loose after that." paul's recommendation is against the entire spirit of christianity. actually, i do understand. quite well. i've just let go of the notion that it's one book and agree with itself. what you're doing is called apologetics. you're distorting the meaning of both texts to meet somewhere in the middle so they agree, when in reality they are two extremes that are incompatible. you cannot both keep away from sinners, and help them at the same time. and you cannot push them out of the congregations without first judging them. need i find the verse on that?paul goes to great lengths in multiple letters to instruct on male dominance and avoiding effeminancy. here's one example:

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1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

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tell me, as an orthodox jew, how did jesus wear his hair do you think? no, i'm well aware paul is against homosexuality in all forms. i would go so far as to say he's against sexuality period, but cannot find a way to logically condemn heterosexual sex. i am in no way defending paul. i think he's the reason there's so much wrong with the christian church today.

i dunno, i woke up this morning and decided i'd be straight. [/sarcasm]seriously, i don't know where people get this idea. do they like, not think?

i think it's more that they are choosing not to know their own sexuality. it is a choice to them, because they choose against it. i'm not gay, but i'm not sure i'm straight either. someday i may find someone who loves me and when that happens (if it happens) i don't think i'll care what genitals they have. because somehow in spite of all the "love" that's talked about in christianity, i didn't manage to get much of it from most of the christians i've met. including those who claimed to be my friends.

no, it's a blatant double standard."i didn't choose my sexuality, because i'm just doing what's natural and god-aproved! but you, you're doing something different, so you must have made a choice."doesn't make sense to me. think, people. if you didn't make a decision on this kind of matter, chances are it's not something most people sit around and decide. but yourself in someone else's shoes. that is what christianity is about afterall.do unto others...like i've said before. christ was ahead of his time. and he's ahead of ours too.

why is it that everytime there is a thread that might possibly have anything to do with homosexuality you people get so virulent? what happened to love your neighbor as yourself? what happened to forgiveness? why is it that the church gets all up in arms about the gays but refuses to even mention much less seek to prevent the molestation of its daughters? more christian women are molested as children than any other group i've met. and not to mention the boys. yes boys. i've known so many guys whose fathers raped them... it's disgusting. yet the church never mentions it. why? it's too busy with the sliver in its neighbor's eye.sin it may or may not be. but if it is, sin is sin and none is greater than any other. save perhaps for pride. how dare you.why don't you read your bible once or twice. read about him whom you claim to follow. read what he would say of your vile hypocrisy. read how he would fling over your tables. read of how he feels you are defiling his church.for the wages of sin is death, but the FREE gift of god is eternal life through his son.for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god.for by GRACE you have been saved, though faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT of god. not of works lest any should boast.you are not saved because you go out and scream damnation upon others, but because you deserve the VERY SAME FATE and yet god forgave you. not because he thought you better than them, but because he knew you needed to grow. so stop drinking milk and eat the meat of his love and knowledge. become grown and faithful and stop condemning. eat with the tax collectors and converse with the prostitutes. they might show you something you couldn't understand in your meager experience.paul and his rules and his sheltering is not your leader. christ and his compassion is. follow your king and not his general.you repent. you change. end your hate.This message has been edited by brennakimi, 03-20-2005 03:54 AM