Many Christians Lack Responsibility

They are not mutually exclusive, as I discovered when I learnt about rational thinking.I think Christians do use satan as an excuse for sin. Speaking from experience though, Phat, sin can only be dealt with through grace. God has dealt with me through grace, as the NT expounds. we are being sanctified. That process happens through the Holy Spirit prompting us and convicting us of sin. Only God is righteous. We have all inherited the sinful nature. This is the message of our bible, Phat. No personal morals will affect what is sin and what is righteous in God's eyes.Therefore, if you want to clean up sin in your life, it's only possible through Christ. If you want to alter your morals and play the moral highground, and do good works - then join a religion that has a set of rules, or try and improve yourself, but know this; you will still be judged according to God's standards - not your own moral idolatry.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Am I righteous? No. The Lord is my righteousness. Am I more moral than you? It is a modern mindset.If you are more moral than I, then to God it is cakes. If I eat 10 cakes and you eat 4 and say that you are better than I, then what does this mean? It means that nowadays you try to eat less, but you have never eaten "none whatsoever". Therefore we are all guilty of taking part in the sinful nature.My advice to you Phat, is not to hang around unbelievers too much. For what relation does light have with darkness? When I hung around with unbelievers, eventually I almost became one, and started understanding their arguments, and agreeing. But when you are in the mud it doesn't seem dirty. First step out of the mud, and give that time to God, Phat, and it will start to look dirty once more.

You are a prime example of this modern mindset I spoke about. thankyou.Don't you see that judging God according to what you think, as a man from the dust, IS SIN.Can't you see the problem logically? you are supposed to be the rational one.Think about it. The bible says that to question God is sin. Job was told to "curse God and die"....but he never in his suffering, thought he knew better than God...For my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts. For God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. And another scripture is "for God is not a man that he can lie"....If God says He is righteous, and His word is true, then he can't lie and say he is righteous when he is not.Your problem is that your own morals REQUIRE that you sin against God by speaking falsely against him, or WORSE - from ignorance.See the contradiction yet?

It is a none sequitur. It does not follow logically, and shows that you don't understand the message of the bible, wrote by believers, not unbelievers, for the Jews are not a stupid people - if they wrote something that seems to be a problem FOR YOU, this doesn't mean that they think the same as you, as this is also fallacious.God gave the law so that man would CHOOSE to not do evil. As for all of evil, the book of Revelation tells us that this present system of things will pass away in God's time - Him being God.By contradicting the very definition of God in the bible, by saying he is evil, or responsible, then the conclusions that follow will only be fallacious because you are starting with a premise which is not actually present in the bible. You are altering the definition of God, as written by the Jews, to fit your own personal morals.example. I write a book that says Harry Potter is not a slytherin....and you look at instances in that book which indicate TO YOU, that he must be slytherin, such as speaking in parseltongue, therefore you conclude fallaciously that he is slytherin.You can't wre-write my book according to your own standards!

That's the one part of my post which I couldn't articulate. You have to deal with the rest. I assume that you think that according to the bible, it is okay for a person who doesn't believe in God to judge him.I must laugh at that conclusion, considering what it says about sin, and mankind.

Now you have also mentioned logic. I am very, VERY happy to discuss it.Is it NOT a contradiction, to judge God's standards of morals as "sin" and "injust" etc.....and be "righteous", according to a biblical definition?This is the problem - you can't discuss what is right and wrong, from your own feelings, as this is idolatry. A bible study can show this. (I recommend Genesis TV, sky channel 592, 9pm on Mondays)...There is a series which attempts to understand the bible in depth.We can have our own morals, and that is up to us. So I could personally choose, as Ian Brady did, to conclude that "everything is lawful". Therefore I can now rape and murder according to my own morals.So you see Brian, logically you can't just represent some kind of salt-of-the-earth atheist-standard, but infact ALL MORAL SYSTEMS.My fear is that when people create their own morals, they start to make sin "acceptable"...Abortion, lies, etc...The whole financial system is sin.....when people are left to their own devices, the bible says there will be consequences.I know you won't agree Brian... good to hear from you again. sorry you are still no further along.

At this stage we have reached already, alas, an impass.I can not longer respond because my main purpose was to respond to Phat. Ad hominem allusions about me are not the topic. Also, it seems to be that people can't respond to my actual reasoning, but again question me.it is easy to dish it out - but harder to take it. I will no longer debate people who only question, but cannot answer.

THIS ENDS MY PARTICIPATION IN THIS THREAD. I hope Phat will receive my opinion.

It depends on how you think. Obviously I take the bible as a whole - believeing it's compilation is intended by God. If it says that there is no darkness in God, or sin, then logically "create evil" cannot refer to something morally negative about Him. (LOGICALLY).There seems to be two positions.1. find one verse which says something bad about God. (The Jews wouldn't do it) or;
2. Find out what the Word means by "create evil".One thing we can do is look at the stories in the bible, and see how God "creates evil". His actions are infact only ever retliatory, in response to sin. Thus, the definition of evil, though it might seem a semantics issue, must be adressed, otherwise you are free to simply judge God by taking any verse you can get that seems to condemn Him. You don't read it objectively Brian. The language you use, and the things you state, are by no means objective. If you want to personally conclude that it is a fairytale, so be it. It is not a logical requirement of reason however. I believe satan was an angel/servant of God whom sinned. I do believe God is capable of anything. But "anything" is limited, in our understanding. The bible says God's ways aren't our ways, nor his understanding, and that we "should not lean on our own understanding".One thing I can state is that our knowledge of satan is very limited. I don't need satan to exist to show that humans sin, or that I sin.I think reading your posts Brian, your objections are exactly the same as every other atheist's objections, and I have heard them many times. IMO, you are all of the same spirit, that is; ypou are without God, will try and blame him for everything and anything, and think that this is somehow impressive.On the surface perhaps it is, but no wisdom comes easily. no understanding is given to those who will not accept instruction from God! Therefore you are "always learning, and never knowing".

I think your eclectic approach leads you in the wrong way Phat. The whole point is that we can only state anything about God because of the scriptures. As long as you simply lean on your OWN FEELINGS/THOUGHTS, then you are creating your own god, based on what YOU think is right or wrong.If we as christians merely promote yet another opinion, then that opinion is just an aopinion like anyone elses. But if we hold fast to the scriptures, then our authority is without question because we put away our own opinions at a very heavy personal cost.For the whole point is that we absolutely refuse to deny our personal sins that satisy our flesh...But the true message is no picnic and no fairytale,..the true message is that we will, with many troubles, enter the kingdom.Being a Christian brings pain. A fairytale doesn't. A fairytale is that if you kill your neighbour, you will have 40 virgins in heaven.But there is no carnal activity in heaven, which is sin. This is why the bible is vital - because if we lean on our own understanding...bad things happen - we commit adultery, as love is free...etc...Now if i want to make my own religion, i'll go and find a way to carry on sinning. But the truth hurts, and it is still hurting me everyday, because denying self is killing me. That's because to deny the flesh is to say that it is dead.You have lost your way Phat, in that human thinking, from Jar's Gospel, and atheists....have indoctrinated you.You shouldn't fear what they say..they have phds, some of them, but God hasn't got any phds....nor will he boast.They do not have wisdom, nor understanding. Phat, find Christians that know their bible, believe in it all, or go down the path I went down when I became evolutionist - but that period was all because of my own selfish doubts...and I pierced myself with many sorrows. These people aren't gods Phat, these evcers, they're just fallen men..Trust ME.Lean on Christ. Pray to Him - and ask Him to guide you in the way everlasting. He has answered all my prayers, and been faithful.I felt the presence of God come down upon me, fill me, and take my depression from me. It was supernatural. When I praised God, His presence fell upon me.. It's not something that can be faked or fabricated..you have to ignore the voices of disbelievers..God has done things for me that would blow your mind BECAUSE, when everything was LOST, I declared that I would accept losing anything, but I woulkd NOT lose God - nor speak against Him. And then? An explosion of blessings beyond the possible.You need to get back on fire. I would not tell you these things unless they were true. But I am His witness, I declare that he is true. Now forget men - i command you to turn back to me with all your heart.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

When I said being a Christian brings pain, I am speaking from experience of the path we are on when we are being sanctified. Not a general statement about joy/pain being in the world, which is very obvious. I am declaring a fact, which is not up for debate - that through promptings of the Holy Spirit, comes pain. The new testament says to pick up your cross, "if we share in His sufferings". I should have mentioned to you that I am talking about things born again christians usually talk to one another about. (not use to talking to secularists, liberals etc.. I refer directly to those in Christ). No - it was not meant as a metaphor, nor the bible. A witness declares something to be true via experience/observation. I am not lying at all. Craig knows me, and has known me for a long time through correspondence. He knows I am telling the truth. The first part is an obvious truism, the second part I did not claim.Denying sins the new Testament names, can bring suffering, but will not bring suffering for a none-believer who indulges in it still. Denying SELF under a biblical definition can be a painful process. THAT is my claim. How can this type of suffering be present? Have you read the letters from Paul or what? My whole position is coming from what I read in the NT, from a position of believing it all. That means I'm going to talk about things such as being sanctified, the law of the spirit of life, rather than sin and death, the flesh, the spirit, the natural man, etcc...all of it. This is what I study and practice.as for Phat, I believe his threads are an attempt to be accepted by his peers. He will mention something negative in the hopes of their approval, but seems to get even more agressive assults on God. He has to realize that pleasing men will bare little fruit. Pleasing God is what matters.The scriptures are God-breathed. This is what we believe. I reject your claims that they are just more opinion, as the Word of the Lord came through prophets of God. I hold it all as inerrant.

Ad hominem. Start again, without mentioning "mike". Logic 101, friend. Sorry to dissapoint you but.....I don't care about your judgements about "mike".You've got a really really bad problem now. Do you know what it is? The problem is that phat knows me very well. He knows my history, and knows that your post is not true. So now he should know that no truth can come from such people.My ppost to him is as a fellow-Christian, long-term friend.I feel no desire to judge you equally, "stile". God bless you Sir. Go your way.

ADDENDUMApologies for the "quick" posts, poor grammar. I know I mention it incessantly, but I really do have very limited web time, and tend to furiously rush my posts.It should be noted that when I talk to Christian friends, since we are somewhat charismatic, we will talk in a way a secular person might deem to be very radical or odd. This is expected, especially when we are trying to encourage one another, and "build each other up" in the faith.Mike isn't commanding Phat to do anything. I know Phat - and He knows that when Christ commands something, this is as a feather on the wind. No "trial" is joyful at the time. But I believe the Word of the Lord concerning Phat, at this time, is to focus more on God, AND WHAT HE SAYS in His Word. At times, we are called, through our brothers/sisters, to act.I encourage phat not in the way of the world, but in the Word, where He WILL find the answers that burden Him. But He must Trust God.If you reject me phat, that is okay with me. If you conclude me a lunatic, that is okay with me Phat. This foolish dust will verily refute thee. Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Thus you assume you are not blind, "therefore your sin remains."

That's okay, the atheists that look upon it might have different morals than you. They might believe that "everything is lawful".You have just offended Jack the Ripper.By the way - define "innocent", under atheism. If I pick up a gun and shoot you, Jack isn't offended! Why should I prefer your morals rather than Jacks?I am a decent person, I am not going to assume you know right and he doesn't when there is no innate meaning to anything.(thus my fun is complete. Reductio ad absurdum, moral relativism).Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.