Many Christians Lack Responsibility

When I said being a Christian brings pain, I am speaking from experience of the path we are on when we are being sanctified. Not a general statement about joy/pain being in the world, which is very obvious. I am declaring a fact, which is not up for debate - that through promptings of the Holy Spirit, comes pain. The new testament says to pick up your cross, "if we share in His sufferings". I should have mentioned to you that I am talking about things born again christians usually talk to one another about. (not use to talking to secularists, liberals etc.. I refer directly to those in Christ). No - it was not meant as a metaphor, nor the bible. A witness declares something to be true via experience/observation. I am not lying at all. Craig knows me, and has known me for a long time through correspondence. He knows I am telling the truth. The first part is an obvious truism, the second part I did not claim.Denying sins the new Testament names, can bring suffering, but will not bring suffering for a none-believer who indulges in it still. Denying SELF under a biblical definition can be a painful process. THAT is my claim. How can this type of suffering be present? Have you read the letters from Paul or what? My whole position is coming from what I read in the NT, from a position of believing it all. That means I'm going to talk about things such as being sanctified, the law of the spirit of life, rather than sin and death, the flesh, the spirit, the natural man, etcc...all of it. This is what I study and practice.as for Phat, I believe his threads are an attempt to be accepted by his peers. He will mention something negative in the hopes of their approval, but seems to get even more agressive assults on God. He has to realize that pleasing men will bare little fruit. Pleasing God is what matters.The scriptures are God-breathed. This is what we believe. I reject your claims that they are just more opinion, as the Word of the Lord came through prophets of God. I hold it all as inerrant.

Ad hominem. Start again, without mentioning "mike". Logic 101, friend. Sorry to dissapoint you but.....I don't care about your judgements about "mike".You've got a really really bad problem now. Do you know what it is? The problem is that phat knows me very well. He knows my history, and knows that your post is not true. So now he should know that no truth can come from such people.My ppost to him is as a fellow-Christian, long-term friend.I feel no desire to judge you equally, "stile". God bless you Sir. Go your way.

ADDENDUMApologies for the "quick" posts, poor grammar. I know I mention it incessantly, but I really do have very limited web time, and tend to furiously rush my posts.It should be noted that when I talk to Christian friends, since we are somewhat charismatic, we will talk in a way a secular person might deem to be very radical or odd. This is expected, especially when we are trying to encourage one another, and "build each other up" in the faith.Mike isn't commanding Phat to do anything. I know Phat - and He knows that when Christ commands something, this is as a feather on the wind. No "trial" is joyful at the time. But I believe the Word of the Lord concerning Phat, at this time, is to focus more on God, AND WHAT HE SAYS in His Word. At times, we are called, through our brothers/sisters, to act.I encourage phat not in the way of the world, but in the Word, where He WILL find the answers that burden Him. But He must Trust God.If you reject me phat, that is okay with me. If you conclude me a lunatic, that is okay with me Phat. This foolish dust will verily refute thee. Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Oh zeus, the blind leading the blind.

Thus you assume you are not blind, "therefore your sin remains."

Again, as with almost every single phrase you write, you assume too much.I didn't post that message to say something to you or Phat, I posted that message for the same reason I post all my messages here at EvC: in order to display truth to those who read these forums in search of honest information. I certainly did use your name quite a bit, but that was for mere humour's sake. The thread needed some lightening up after the dark cloud you accosted it with.It matters not what your purpose for writing the message was. You did write it, and you did post it in a public forum. Someone needed to show how damaging it is before any other innocent searcher happens across it and mistakes any of your flimsy claims for actual honest truth.

That's okay, the atheists that look upon it might have different morals than you. They might believe that "everything is lawful".You have just offended Jack the Ripper.By the way - define "innocent", under atheism. If I pick up a gun and shoot you, Jack isn't offended! Why should I prefer your morals rather than Jacks?I am a decent person, I am not going to assume you know right and he doesn't when there is no innate meaning to anything.(thus my fun is complete. Reductio ad absurdum, moral relativism).Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

I can't convince you that I experienced God's presence, and that he healed my depression, but do you think you have a right to judge such a thing, when if you are honest - you were not there.Please don't give the natural explanations for such things. i am well versed and thoroughly knowledgeable concerninng post hoc reasoning and confirmation bias, but the confirmation of an antecedant is still valid in science even if not a proof, if you find a viable evidence. Yes, ys, I know about post hoc ergo propter hoc, apriori, and posteriori reasoning, pre-hoc, memory bias, etc.. Thanks anyway.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

MY WEB TIME IS UP. Don't know if I will return. Apologies to stile and others for not responding.I meant what I said stile, I hope God blesses you and that you will "flourish like an herb."I really am not a cult member. I do tithe though. Infact I wouldn't ask anyone to tithe because it has to be a heart thing. Not that I give a large amount of money but as God so prompts me, I go and give my money there. i know it can seem like I am a nutter but from the outside, the mud is very dirty. i admitt that I am a bit outspoken, but my only health problem is anxiety disorder, which just makes me feel like I am dying inside like a bad flu or something. but God planted me in a fruitful field beside all still waters, I didn't bind the ox, i promise thee. Now mikes really getting nuts. I'm going to eat some 2d grapes. (TTFN)Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

I'm sure that many people are utterly convinced that Scientologist auditing sessions "cure" a variety of mental illnesses and psychological issues. I'm sure they "feel" the "body thetans" leaving them, and feel euphoric and relieved that they have been "cured."None of that makes Scientology any more or less legitimate than Christianity and your "holy spirit" experience.I've "felt God's presence" too, you know.The problem is that such "feelings" are inherently impossible to test. They don't happen to everyone, they don't feel the same to everyone, and people can have similar experiences from wildly different belief systems that seem mutually exclusive. The identification of whatever causes the feeling is purely arbitrary, based only on the pre-existing beliefs of the individual. A Christian will feel God or Jesus; a Muslim will feel Allah, etc. Sometimes the "feeling" is brought on by prayer, other times by quiet meditation, or even the auditing sessions Scientologists are so fond of.None of it is supported by any amount of real evidence. Religious people do not show a lower rate of mental illness than nonreligious people. Medically speaking, those who have relied on faith for healing (whether mental or physical ailments) have suffered for their foolish reliance on unsubstantiated flimflam and nonsense.We don't need to be there to know that no external deity cured your depression, Mike - if you can't show that the deity exists, you can hardly show that the diety took action. I fully accept that you may have found peace of mind that snapped you out of depression through your faith - but that's nothing more than a mental placebo.

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When I said being a Christian brings pain, I am speaking from experience of the path we are on when we are being sanctified. Not a general statement about joy/pain being in the world, which is very obvious. I am declaring a fact, which is not up for debate - that through promptings of the Holy Spirit, comes pain. The new testament says to pick up your cross, "if we share in His sufferings". I should have mentioned to you that I am talking about things born again christians usually talk to one another about. (not use to talking to secularists, liberals etc.. I refer directly to those in Christ).

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But it isn't a fact. Not all Christians have those issues. Now people who are "worldly" for lack of a better term, I'm sure do have difficulties in changing their behavior and lifestyle to accommodate their congregation of choice, but it isn't across the board. I've seen people who have difficulty shedding "the old skin" and I've seen people who have no difficulty. Not as much shedding needed.

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A witness declares something to be true via experience/observation. I am not lying at all. Craig knows me, and has known me for a long time through correspondence. He knows I am telling the truth.

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You're telling the truth for you. What works for you may not work for him. Without a concrete anchor, he'll still float between your witness and someone else's witness.

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Denying sins the new Testament names, can bring suffering, but will not bring suffering for a none-believer who indulges in it still. Denying SELF under a biblical definition can be a painful process. THAT is my claim. How can this type of suffering be present? Have you read the letters from Paul or what? My whole position is coming from what I read in the NT, from a position of believing it all. That means I'm going to talk about things such as being sanctified, the law of the spirit of life, rather than sin and death, the flesh, the spirit, the natural man, etcc...all of it. This is what I study and practice.

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I don't drink alcohol and never have, so denying alcohol or getting drunk is very easy for me. See the point. If one is not committing the sins anyway, giving them up is not an issue.Remember that Paul and his group were in a very different culture and political situation. He was trying to get Greeks who, according to Paul, seemed to do the sins Judaism forbid; and bring them in line with acceptable Jewish behavior. I agree that changing from one way of life to a very different one is difficult or painful as you put it.Today, people grow up in the Christian church. They've been taught from the crib. When they hit 13 and decide to be baptized, if they aren't sooner, there is no major change in their lifestyle.I will agree that even those if they stray from the path, let's say in college and get wild, when they decide to come back into the flock, yes it can be difficult to change back.Pain is not a given.

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as for Phat, I believe his threads are an attempt to be accepted by his peers. He will mention something negative in the hopes of their approval, but seems to get even more agressive assults on God. He has to realize that pleasing men will bare little fruit. Pleasing God is what matters.

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I agree he seems to look for acceptance. That is part of not having an anchor. He looks for confirmation from the outside instead of the inside.I agree that trying to please others in an attempt to receive validation is fruitless. Pleasing God is easy to say, but in practical application there isn't a consistent path within Christianity.What we have of God is from man and it varies with the ages. There's no escaping man's input.

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The scriptures are God-breathed. This is what we believe. I reject your claims that they are just more opinion, as the Word of the Lord came through prophets of God. I hold it all as inerrant.

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Yes, the writings are inspired by God. If you believe they are dictated by God, that's fine. Obviously you can choose to accept or reject what you wish. Just remember, Phat has that same right.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Innocence concerns itself with law, it has nothing to do with whether God exists or not since laws exist regardless of God. Innocent has the same definition "under atheism" as it does "under theism," whatever that would actually mean. Because Jack's morals will get you killed, and my morals are from a firm foundation in reality that results in a benevolent, objective method to dealing with other people. You can build a society on that, and people have.Everyone knows that a firm, objective foundation in reality has a higher moral ground than a subjective or authoritative (by Jack, or even divinely so) system. I never judged your experience with God's presence. I judged your entire post as being cult-ish, and I showed how it was exactly that. Your experience may or may not be true, I don't really care. What I do care about is if you can actually show that it was, indeed, God's presence you felt and not something else. I am unaware of a human who is incapable of making mistakes. I'd never doubt that you'd mean what you say. Thanks for the sentiment, but I assure you that I have already flourished in the spirit much more than anything I have ever heard described by anyone else (even you, even here). Such things do not necessitate divine assisstance in my experience.

Oh gosh, the blind telling the rest of us what we see.

First of all, Mike...the only useful thing that Jar has taught me is that it is ok to question any and all answers and it is ok to test anything that I have ever been taught. I believe that God exists,although I cannot nor will not attempt to prove it to anyone apart from whatever they glean off what I say. So my first question to you, Wiz m'boy is this:
1) Does God expect us to use the minds that He gave us or does He expect us to follow what our human leaders indoctrinate us with? Tell me now, Mike...and be honest...are you afraid to question anything that you have been taught or are you going to honestly tell me that the Holy Spirit is your sole teacher?2) In response to this: two questions. Do you ever still sin? Also, if you no longer lean on your own understanding, whose understanding do you lean on? If you tell me that you lean on Gods understanding, ask God to tell you what it is that I DO believe. Otherwise, feel free to ask me, if you are unafraid of having your imparted Holy wisdom tweaked. God doeswork in mysterious ways, you know. Heck, He may even work through Stile!

Wow lol, this discussion is heavy even for me haha.I don't know how you deal with things in your churchs down in the states, but over here Phat, my pastor has said numerous times to doubt everything he says, and always rely on the Bible, which I believe is the innerrant Word of God (personnal opinion, so I don't want anyone saying 'prove it' please ).Also, remember that the greek origin of the word 'faith', as used by Paul, is 'evidence based' and not 'blind faith' (as Mike seems to be proposing, -). So in any case, it is very 'biblical' to doubt things. Some people will need very little evidence to believe, while others (such as me) will need more evidence.In both cases, doubting is never a bad thing. As I would suggest that atheist do the same.On another note, did you like the debate with prof. Dawkins ?