God: Knowable or not Knowable?

Hey all. I'm new here. I find the question interesting so if you don't mind I'll toss in my 2 cents, though I'm fairly certain my oppinion isn't worth half as much as I think it is.First of all I have to ask, why are you asking the question? Are you asking because you want to know Him? [and if so, by all means keep reading] Or are you asking because you are looking for a loophole to get out of needing to know Him? [what's the point, if you are searching for a loophole to justify your not knowing Him, it means you have no desire to know Him, and therefore reject any relationship] The root causae of a relationship is a desire to know the other party that is mutualy accepted by both parties. If one being desires to have a relationship with another, but the other rejects that relationship, then there can be no relationship. God desires to have a relationship with man, He is, in essence, obsessed with us. (in a Pure, Holy, and Godly way) He will not force us into a relationship we do not want, and in the end if we reject that relationship, He will give us what we have chosen, eternity seperated from His presence.You say that a meaningful relationship reqiures empathy, and while I don't nessarally disagree, I think the term I would have used is intimacy. (which reqiures empathy, as well as honesty, trust, humility, and self sacrifice. Intimacy is linked with feelings of closeness, safety, trust and transparency among partners in a collaborative relationship. For intimacy to be sustainable and nourishing it also requires trust, transparency and rituals of connection.) That's how I define a meaningful relationship. Do I think one can have a meaningful relationship with God, yes, provided they invest time into that relationship. I looked up the definition of empaty and it seems as if there are almost as many definitions of empathy as their are peaple to empathize with, but this one isn't bad."To perceive the internal frame of reference of another with accuracy and with the emotional components and meanings which pertain thereto as if one were the person, but without ever losing the "as if" condition. Thus, it means to sense the hurt or the pleasure of another as he senses it and to perceive the causes thereof as he perceives them, but without ever losing the recognition that it is as if I were hurt or pleased and so forth."You say that to empathize with God reqiures us to see the world the way God sees it, which regiures us to have an equal understanding of God; however, one has to have equal understanding to have empathy. This is a self repeating arguement.x+y=y+xYou then give two opposite answers to choose from as if one must be true and the other false. Personally I don't see why a decent portion of both can't make up for the total lack of one or the other. i.e. God gives us enough information about His person that we can obtain a fair amount of understanding. (lifting us up closer to His level) And where we fail at understanding Him on His level He became more like us, to fill in the gaps.x+y [its not either or, its both]Your right about point E. [We accept that there is, however, a God.] But points D. [To de-Godify God would be to make Him no longer God] and F. [Therefore we cannot have an understanding equal to God] are alittle offGod, being unique, (without equal) not only has the ability to be God the Father [mind], but also God the Son [body], and God the Spirit [soul]. He has three different states of being, all equally un-created, eternal, and omnipotent, three persons (not to be confused with person) yet one being. He exists in all three states, and yet is completly united as one being. This is called the Trinity. He can therefore become a Man and yet still be God. He can also instill in us His Spirit to counsel and comfort us.Now, as to the question: Is God Knowable? answer: Yes.Can we know and understand Him absolutly 100% completely?Not if we're still breathing.God the Father is seated on the throne, ensuring the laws are obayed and taking note of those who break them. God the Son went to prepare a place for us, that where He is there we may be also. It is the Spirit of God which inhabits the earth, seeking out the souls of men. That which is of the flesh cannot perceive the things of the spirit. Only though the spirit can one percieve, and then only bits and peices, because our sin gets in the way, and for no other reason. I probably left you with more questions than answers but that is part of the mistery of God, to always seek His face."Safe? Who said anything about safe? Of course He isn't safe. But He is good. He's the King, I tell you."Edited by imageinvisible, : Added text in qs box

Thanks for the greating. Your probably right about peaple not agreeing with me, they have that option. I look forward to many good debates.It's nothing personal, I think I gather what you mean when you say that "God understands them" (better than they understand themselves) but the opposite of belief is disbelief.Disbelief: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue.accourding to Marriam-WebsterLove the Simpsons quote!"I'm longing to see Him, even if I do feel frieghtened when it comes to the point."

Thank you Stile for the greeting.How did you know that I know a lot about God? As simply as I can put it. There can be only One, or else there can be none. For, if there are many would that not cause great contention among the masses? What then is earth but the chess set of the gods, and us their pawns. Or perhaps, they gamble among each other to see who can gain the most followers. What point then is there in it? Each is as good as the other, no one greater and no one less. Which then do we give credit to, when we speak of creation? If there is only One, would He not make Himself knowable to those who seek to know Him? Should it not stand to reason that He would speak and deal with all of us equally. How He speaks to me and relates to me, would He treat you any differently? And if He is in me as He is in you, would He not see Himself and reveal it to you? Does He not call us to caution when He senses deceit.You say we cannot observe how He interacts with us, and with our neighbors and therefore we cannot compare observations. Yet when I said "This is God." you both recognized Him, and that I knew Him. Did you see the Invisible Image and recognize it when you saw it? You say 'we' cannot know, I say I can know, and you can know, and 'we' can see His Invisible Image in each other.You are what you do. God is what He does, and if you empathize with Him, you take on some of His characteristics. These characteristics can be seen by those who empathize with Him. Spend an hour with an Australian and see if you don't start to sound like one mate. (I love Australian's, they're great!) This does not mean that you should just blindly accept what anyone says. But if you empathize with Him then He has given you a Spirit of wise council, so that you will not be deceived, provided you heed His council. First; out of all of them, He's the only one people love to hate. Say the name of Jesus Christ (with reverence) in a public setting, and watch the reaction that it brings. It's quite ironic if you think about it. No other name, no other figurehead, no other religious icon, draws half the amount of hatred and loathing as the Son of God. People have sought for centuries to defame Him, to slander Him, to demean, or de-edify Him to the level of normal men. And yet He is called the Prince of Peace. He harmed no one, cursed no one. There's something to that. What Image do we see [though we never met Him] that makes us hate Him so. Second; He chose me, He knew me before the foundation of the earth, knew everything I would do, and yet He still chose me. Third; out of all the others, He was the only One who was willing to die for me. Forth; I have recognized His Image in others.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quotes. Press the peek button to see how I did it.

ACTS 9:3-9, Acts 22:6-9, This is one way God could make Himself known. Though I doubt He will do it this way next time around.

Hey Stile sorry for the delay in getting back to you. It would seem that my oppinion is worth less than even I thought it would be around here. But it's good to hear that you desire to understand and learn, that's what life is all about. You remind me of Thomas. He wanted to believe, but he wanted to know that what he believed was the truth. As to the question why can there be only One, this depends on your definition of God. Quite frankly the only useful God that I can think of is One that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent other wise He would simply not be worth worshiping or worring about. However all of these charactoristics denote infinite qualities. An infinite number cannot be devided, multiplied, added, or subtracted from. By definition it is All, infinite, and it is intrinsically imposible to break down an infinite being into multiple deities with diferenciating characteristics. I.E. There can be only One, or there can be none. [infinity or zero] The reverse is also true, if there are many gods then they cannot all be omnipotent, omnicient, or omnipresent. Since I cannot contemplate, or rather it seams quit illogical to me to believe, that the universe and all that is in it burst into existance from nothing and by nothing, which by definition is a zero, I choose infinity. I hope I'm conveying these thoughts adaquately, it may very well be that a finite mind cannot completely understand infinite concepts to any degree of certainty. But the fact that we can understand the concept of infinity in general points to, at least in my book, the possibility of infinites existing. So can there be more than One, not if He's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He 'could' by definition be all, but not many diferent gods. Please note that I am in no way insinuating or even contemplating that God is the same being that is portrayed in every religion. As I stated before God cannot be devided into multiple diferenciating charactoristics, He must, being infinite, remain congruent to His nature. (i.e. He must remain constant and unchanging) It may be that there are one or two finite lessor beings which have some power and may or may not be visible that seek their own agenda's (man fits into this catagory) but these are by definition finite and therefore cannot be God (as defined by infinite). I'm not sure I agree entirely with this statement. Sure from one point of view; that the universe and everything in it is the result of accidental random chance, then yes I would not expect reality to be resonable, logical, or any ordered structure what-so-ever. Order reqiures Orders, Laws reguire a Law Giver/Maker, logic and reason require both logic and reason. These are things that random chance occurances lack. Chaos begets more Chaos. However since I observe that that the universe is ordered, reasonable, and logical, I expect reality to copitulate, with as few unnecessary explainations or wildly concocted notions as possible. [this was a hard lesson to learn] This does not mean that I cannot study the workings of the universe, just that I should limit the amount of conclusions I jump to without adequate proof. [another hard leason] For instance can the truth be irrational? And if it can then how can we determine what is either rational or true? Tell me from what matter does logic eminate? (and grey matter is not an answer, evolutionary hypothesis' state that the mind is nothing more than a collection of random chemical reactions. Random chemical reactions beget more random chemical reactions, there is no order in chaos only tragectory and velocity) Logic is imaterial but that doesn't make it any less logical. Like wise there are some truths that can only be learned through experiance, because they have no physical form. I don't think that this is an entirely true statement. Yes, some people commune with what they believe is God (but who do they define God as) If they define God as the One true God (infinite) as I stated earlier then the defining charactoristics should be conguent, unchanging, thoughout the history of the specific religion. Secound How do the god's prophets describe Him, what do they say concerning Him and that which He created? Does the god remain congruent and unchanging throughout the minestries of His 'preachers' so to speak. [this is hard than one may at fist think. you are looking not at the human charactoristics that the human portrays, but the more subtle Godly ones hiding in the background] What, if anything does the god say about himself. Here in lies the hardest part of determining which 'god' is the real God. Forget about the varing denominations; these stem mostly from squables between different interpritations. Go to the source documentation and examine that as thoroughly as possible, expecting (if it is from God) to tell you that which concerns His nature and Deity. Spacificaly who does He say He is, not so much what those illustrated say about Him. Don't be afraid to ask questions, frankly it wouldn't hurt to ask Him. Just saying, Hey I don't know if You're there or not, but I want to know if You're real or not, and I want to make sure its the real You. (don't ask this seeking a sign from God, your not going to get anymore signs than are already present) I have no doubts that He can make Himself real (known) to a person. It may also be that some of these people you speak of, though they say they know God have a pour understanding of Him, or live contrary to what He desires or has planed for them. It is far easier to be of the world than it is to just be in it. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is far easier to lower the standard than it is to climb the mountain. I am inclined to hold to this; that God, though He calls all to repentance, being all knowing, knows those who will choose Him and those who won't; or rather He chooses those who will know Him, or who want to (are willing to) know Him; and He makes Himself knowable to them. To those who have no desire to know God, He will not reveal Himself. Frankly if you don't want to believe then there is nothing I or anyone else (though they rise from the dead) could say to change your mind. Since its getting late I'll try to answer this one and then get back to the others at later time. Simply put I do not recognize Him in others because they are good. They most certainly are not good (myself included) and if they are His they would tell you as much. No one is good, but One, and He is the Father. Charisma is not a defining charactoristic of a Godly person. There are many who are charismatic, I'll name Hitler as one and David Koresh as another, but thier actions, though they claimed to have the same god, are not consistant with the defining charactoristics of the God they claimed. But they had many followers because of their charisma. God does not need, nor for the most part does He use, charismatic people. One of the defining charactoristics of God is that He chooses a humble and contrite spirit to convey His message. The most powerful and moving messages I have ever heard where given by people who greatly lacked charisma. The image I see portrayed in others that I recognize as coming from Him is the same image I see of myself as coming from Him, rather how He sees me. A persons actions can speak volumes, but the motives behind those actions speaks even greater. I said before that no one is good, the only reason a person has for doing good is because they think it can somehow benifit them in the end. This is the motive behind the action. I know from my own personal experiance, and I think that if a person took a good honest look at who they are on the inside (at that person that they try so desperatly to hide from the rest of the world) they would see and agree that they are not good. Because I believe that God is the epitomy of all things, that He is the culmination of everything that is good and right and true, perfect and without blemish in every way, when I compare myself to Him I know that no amount of good deads will ever suffice. That I can never be good enough to erase the bad. The good I do doesn't erase, it doesn't even cover up, the bad, it just shines a bright light on the bad, making it all the more obvious. I can never achieve Gods standard of goodness on my own, lucky for me He provided a way. It is this providential grace that I see in others that lets me know that they know Him.

The question I was answering was can God make Himself known to a person, and if so how. I was giving an example of how God 'could' make Himself known to a person in general. But I also stipulated that He most likly will not repeat this kind of encounter. Edited by imageinvisible, : added text in shaded quote box

I really do like you Stile. Like I said it was getting late and I was getting tired, it is quit possible that I did not explain my reasoning adequately enough in that state. I will try to do a better job of it here. I do not (and as long as I breath, will not) know everything there is to know about God. This is as much a learning process for me as for everyone else. But what I do know I learned from Him and the truth's He has revealed to me through the intimate relationship I have with Him. (I defined this intimacy in my first post) My motives concerning God and telling others about Him are not so that I can gain any reward, I know that there is nothing, absolutly nothing, that I can do to repay what He has done for me. What I do I do because of what someone else did for me, which was show me the truth. I can no more save you than I can can save myself. Any obligation I might have is fullfilled when I tell others of Him. Whether anyone belives me or not has no bearing on where I spend eternity, my place at the table has already been set, and I cannot lose it, because I am not the One who paid for it to be there. But how can you know what I say is true, how can you know what my motives are? Can you read my mind, or my heart? Do you know because I told you? First you say you can't know and then you say that you have seen people on both sides, believers and nonbelievers, who have good motives. how can you know that their motives are good? You cannot search their soul for the truth behind what they do. I am not talking about what a person does, or how they act exclusively, yes if they have the God of truth in them then they will exhibit some of those truths, but just because someone has a basic belief that is based on a particular truth doesn't mean that they do or do not know God. God is truth and all that is true comes from Him and is His truth. For starters what are you comparing these (nice, kind, good, heroic, wonderful) to? I have an absolute with which to compare these things to, but what do you compare them to? You agreed with me, or seem to agree with me, on the point that only God is good. Do you believe (or agree with me on) this because I told you? because you have learned it from personal experiance? Or because it was revealed to you? This is not a physical truth but one which is invisible; as are many of the others you have agreed with me on. I hold that God is the absolute value of all these things (nice, kind, good, heroic, wonderful, perfect, truth, justice, purity and many many more) and therefore I have a model to compare these things to; but what do you compare these things to? Without a set, unchanging, 'referance frame' to compare these things to; any value of these is equally as true as any other value. For example: If I say, "the sky is black" is this statment true or false? (there are some who would say it is false without ever thinking about the question) If I say, "the sky is purple" is this a true or false statment. How about if I say, "the sky is grey" am I being truthful or deceitful. How about if I say, "the sky is blue" is that the truth or a lie. I tell you that under the right referance frame these are ALL true statments. For at midnight the sky is black, at dawn and dusk many shades of purple, on a rainy day as grey as melancholy, and on a clear day the most beutiful blue. In other words 'nice' becomes relative to the situation or the parties involved, and the same for kind, good, etc. etc. etc. It's easy to be nice to someone who is nice to you, it is far harder to be nice to someone who is not nice to you or good to someone who is not good to you. Civil to someone who is being rude to you. Grateful to someone who is being abusive. To love someone who hates you. Love is patient and kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. I speak of the absolute value of love. I've heard some people say that God is love, while God does love and while He is the absoluote value of love, God is alot more than just love. For in as much as God loves man He hates sin. But how can you say that He is the absolute value of love and that love "keeps no record of wrong" and yet God still hates sin; because, God is also the absolute value of justice. While love keeps no record of wrong justice demands a price be paid for wrongs done. There was One who came and while He was here, He kept no record of wrong. Furthermore when He was wronged by others He pleaded to God that God should forgive them. There where others who where wrong and asked to be forgiven and their records where expunged. Still more who did not or would not ask for forgiveness or refused to forgive others whos' records will condemn them. It is not that God keeps the record, the record is kept inside of us and becomes glaringly obvious in His presence. But I say to you that God will not judge us by His standards, but by our own personal standard, and He will find us all guilty. Why? Because, we change our standards to suit our purpose and make ourselves look good in a particular situation; and then change those standards again when we judge others, again so that we can make ourselves look good. This is what He ment when He said judge not least you be judged. For how can a man be forgiven if he is not willing to forgive others? God is a complex being, far more complex than any human and yet far more aproachable than it may at first seem. When God is your referance frame your perspectives and persceptions change. Does it require an initial leap of faith, yes, but the leep need not be great. For even in that we are not guaranted a tomorrow, we have faith that we will see it. But faith is not the first issue, the first issue is what are you placing your faith in? Are you placing your faith in the idea that you can somehow be good enough or do enough good deeds that you may somehow earn your way in to a heaven that may or may not exist? But as I said in the previous post one can never be good enough. The question is what are you putting your faith in? The words and assertions of fallable men, who are finite and cannot possibly know that what they say, concerning there being no God, is true or not? Or do you trust in the inerant truths, that though they are not visible or have no material referance, are true none the less. Their faith is not in what they can or cannot, do or do not, do; but in what has already been done, and which can never be repaid. Further more their salvation is not dependant on something they did or will do, but on something Someone else did for them, and their faith relies on that. It cannot be lost and no one can steal it from you. One man put it like this. "You can't have an encounter with a mack truck and walk away unchanged. There will be vissible evidence of that encounter written all over the person, that will affect every area of their life." While faith is good faith alone cannot save. For instance, lets say that you have faith that if you jump out of a tall burning building that you will survive, will your faith alone be enough to save you? And if so (which I cannot see how) what happens if you lose your faith halfway down? But if, for instance, some firemen, provide a safty net to catch you with, you have now placed your faith is something, but how can you be certain that that net will be adequate, that it is not faulty, and won't fail the second your wieght hits it? Neither your faith in, nor that which has been provided, will be enough to save you, if that which has been provided is inadequate. You are going to die either way, either from the fire in the burning building or from the fall when you take your leap of faith. But if I tell you that you can explore and test the net before hand, before you have to place your faith and trust in it, you will atleast have some certainty as to whether or not the net is sound and adequate. I have no doubts that He can show you that He is adequate, and that your faith in Him is not misplaced. You are closer than you think or give yourself credit for. It is not so much their actions or even their demeanor, I have seen His image in people before I ever spoke to them or them to me, before they ever comitted to an action that might demonstrate it, but I'm not sure that I can explain this to someone who does not beleive. To see the grace that has been poured out on another, or to see the life altering transformation that occures, in most cases, requires that one be transformed in like manner. I'll tell you a little story about my father. He's a big guy, 275 lbs. and 6 ft. tall. In his younger years he was not someone you would have ever wanted to meet. Though he never flew their colors he used to ride with the banditos' (for those of you who don't know the baditos' are Mexicos' version of the hells angels) My father was not a nice man, he was not a good man, and prior to being saved he had a rapsheet as long as his arm, and wasn't too far away from being locked away in the state pen for a long time. But (two days after being saved) on the day that my father went out into the Brazos River to be baptised my uncle, his brother, went with him. And my uncle said to the man who had lead my father to the lord, I don't know what he found but I want it too. My uncle had seen and witnessed such a drastic transfomation in my father that he had to find out what caused it. So even a nonbeliever will see something in someone who has been touched by God's Grace. How one reacts to this image or presence can vary wildly. Some may seek it out, others will run from it. They may not do this physicaly, but internally, mentally and or emotionally. It seems incredibly unlikly that He is or is not behind these? As far as Buddha and his followers go I beleive that they have a piece of the truth, and that some of what they say is true, but I do not believe that they have the whole truth. That which is True is of God.I look forward to conversing with you more.

Yeah, sorry about the essays. I'll try to keep it short. Intersting, because my God is the God of absolutes. Why compare to the idea when you can compare to the real thing? I've been taking my time getting back to you because, like you, I do not want to offend you concerning what I believe; however, I am compelled to tell you what I believe is the truth, and what I have come to understand as truth, not just because I believe it or want to believe it, but truth for truths own sake. (BTW; don't worry about offending me or my father, for one my father doesn't know I'm talking about him, and me personaly, I don't get offended easy. As for my uncle, you couldn't offend him if you tried, nor can you ask him what change he saw in my father) I just want to throw something up here because I do still believe that we can know God. And im going to include some verses for and aft so you get the context of the message.'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (rest of the world) For in it the rightiousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." (Hab. 2:4) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrightiousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrightiousness,Because what may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attrbutes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse.Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful but became futile in their imaginings and their foolish hearts where darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptable God into an image made like corruptable man, and birds, and four-footed animals and creeping things.' Rom. 1:19-23'But now the rightiousness of God apart from the Law is revealed, being witnessed by the prophets, even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all, who believe. For there is no difference; For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Rom. 3:21-23'But God demonstrates His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' Rom. 5:8'For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.' Rom. 6:23The last time I checked Budah didn't die to remove my sins, Mohamed didn't die to remove my sins. Only One person in history has ever died for my sins, and He said this, "My sheep know My voice." I would like to hear your comments on this. I have never meet a Budist munk or someone of the Islamic faith that has had the same effect. It's kind of long but here is one of the main reasons why you are having trouble believing that people can know God. Watch Christian Videos - Today's Popular Video

Thats good to hear. I had a pretty good Christmas myself, My father came down to visit from Idaho, and my mother gave me one of the best gifts I have ever recieved. A strong's exhaustive Bible concordance. It's pretty cool, I have already used it several times since christmas. Buddha isn't credited for being the Creator of the universe though. By your own admission here [It seems, um... "more good".] you seem to be saying that if heaven exists, everybody will admitted because that would somehow be right or good. If this where the case [and I assure you that it is not] even someone like Hitler, for instance, will be admitted in. Without having to meet any requirments to gain access. If so then 'God" will have to make some serious apologies to the Jews, orthodox catholics, and protestants that Hitler killed in his concentration camps. Where is the justice in that? There is none. The world today has lost sight of the True God, and His holy and just nature, because (dispite what you say concerning seeing His image in others) His image isn't being portrayed in this world today except by a remnant (a very few). God is a fair and impartial judge, who will not show favoritism or mercy on any that do not seek His forgivness. That aside however: The diferance is in the teachings, the fundimentals, and the fact that God, as He is represented in the Bible, is no longer being taught in his churches, is no longer being lived by those who claim to be His people, therefore noone sees Him for what He realy is. You seem to have overlooked another possibility. There are two forces at work in the universe, perticularly on earth. A force of good and a force of evil. Only one of these forces is in complete control, that is the force of good (which is God). God can use even an atheist, an unbeliever, to carry out His will on earth. The point being that you have overlooked the posibility that God, though they do not believe in Him nor give Him the glory (recognition of being God) He can still use such people to do His bidding. The evil one, satan (the little 'g' god of this world whose alter is material things and idols made of matter and flashing lights), on the other hand, can only decieve one into carring out his desires. Through lies and deceit, he tricks and suduces peoples hearts and minds into sin and rebelion against God. A point to remeber is that this little 'g' satan, has already been defeated. Jesus defeated him when He died on the cross and rose again. Satan knows he has lost, he also knows that his time is very short, that he will soon be cast into the pit of fire that has been reserved for him, by God, since the beginning. Satan is so stinking evil that, instead of giving up and surendering to the will of God and to his fate, he wants to take as many humans with him as he possibly can. Someone once used this anology to illustrate how evil satan is. Imagine a man goes into a bank and pulls out a gun to rob the place. The police arive, and surround the bank. The guy inside knows he's caught and that he can't escape. Robbing the bank was evil enough (a sin) but here is where satan differs. Instead of giving up, the man in the bank begins to kill every last person in the bank with him that he can, to take as many with him as he can before the police storm the bank and kill him.Now you may be tempted to question that if God is in control, then why do bad things happen? Why do people and children suffer, die, etc. etc.? There are several folds to the answer to this question. First and foremost I believe (contrary to what many, even in the 'so called' christian church today, believe) that the Bible is the literal Word of God and contains the true history of the world and the universe. From the Bible I can decern that God, when He first created the world, the universe, and everything therein He created them perfect. However man, who was the whole purpose behind this creation, chose to try and live his life without God. Therefore God gave man a taste of what it is like to live without Him. God removed a small portion of His providential grace from the universe, and it has been slowly decaying ever since. IOW. Man is responsible for bringing sin, and with it death, suffering, etc., etc., into the world, and all of creation has been cursed ever since.Another fold of this answer is that all things work to the good of those who believe in God. (the God of the Bible) This means that events in our lives that, at the time seem to be bad, through many different steps and occurances, actualy workout in the end to the benifit of those who believe in Him. It's only when the end result is reach often times that one can clearly see the complete sovereignty of God. That nothing happens apart from His will, which culminates in the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ. (the last book of the Bible) [there are many other folds to the answer to this question, but to keep things short I won't go into them in this post]*one may also ask how I can beleive in the Bible as the inerant word of God in light of what the majority of secular scientist say concerning the history of the world, and what others have (falsely) claimed that the Bible says concerning the earth (i.e. that the bible says that the earth is flat, etc, etc,.) [the bible says that the earth is round that the horizon is curved and contrary to other claims that the world is hung on nothing] Because thousnads of years before modern science ever discovered them the Bible claimed them as well as: the life of the flesh is in the blood and that every green plant is given to everything that has breath for food [which sustains life]. Forthermore because time and time again the Bible has proven itself to be truth.

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This post may contain information, logic/reason exercises, and/or questions used to illustate what I base my logical conclusions on and to expond upon a particular idea. That information/etc. should not be debated in this thread, and any questions that do not fit the topic should not be answered in this thread. Many of these questions/etc. are retorical and/or are included to elicit a mental response not necessaraly a verbal (or in this case a literary) one.