EvC Forum: God: Knowable or not Knowable?

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Topic: God: Knowable or not Knowable?

John 10:10

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Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 190 of 216 (499314)
02-18-2009 9:43 AM

Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
11-22-2007 10:46 AM

Re: Not Knowable

The reason God is not Knowable is because we cannot tell if we're being deceived or not in some way. This is the same with all relationships.

The way we can tell we're not being deceived in some way in our mundane relationships is that our relationship-target also has relationships with others. We can observe how those others are treated and gain insight as to how likely it is that our relationship-target is deceiving everyone they interact with.

We cannot do this with God since we have no way of identifying that the same being is communicating with all the others. Therefore there is no basis to identify the personal communication. There isn't even any basis to identify if that personal communication isn't simply our own imagination.

Doesn't mean it can't exist. Just that we can't know. Or at least, can't know in any way even close to how well we can know our mundane relationships.

If one rejects the revelation God has given to us in His old and new covenants; then yes, one cannot know the God who exists because the god of this world has blinded their eyes (John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4).

When one enters into relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ through the new birth (John 3:3-7, John 6:28-29), then our God is very knowable "in the things He has revealed to us."

Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law."

Blessings

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	Message 5 by Stile, posted 11-22-2007 10:46 AM		Stile has seen this message but not replied

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	Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 10:01 AM		John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 193 of 216 (499336)
02-18-2009 11:32 AM

Reply to: Message 191 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 10:01 AM

Re: Not Knowable

How do you go about determining if the "revealed things" are really from god or if they are tricks of the devil?

The things that happen to those who believe and honor Jesus as Lord according to the revelation of God's word as given/recorded in the Bible "ARE REALLY FROM GOD."

Those who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ can be tricked into having no so-called religious belief, or beliefs in all manners of other religious beliefs. Satan is very happy with either.

Since Huntard hit the nail on the head, he need not reply.

Edited by John 10:10, : added comment

Edited by John 10:10, : added another comment

This message is a reply to:
	Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 10:01 AM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 194 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 11:50 AM		John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 195 of 216 (499347)
02-18-2009 12:03 PM

Reply to: Message 194 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 11:50 AM

Re: Not Knowable

How do you know that?

I cannot explain it any better than John who walked and talked with Jesus before and after His crucifixion, and also after He ascended into heaven.

1 John 5:

10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

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	Message 194 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 11:50 AM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 196 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:00 PM		John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 197 of 216 (499376)
02-18-2009 1:09 PM

Reply to: Message 196 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 1:00 PM

Re: Not Knowable

Well, since John didn't explain it, and you cannot do better than John, it remains unexplained and Stile's argument that God is unknowable stands unrefuted.

John explained it quite well to those who can hear what God is saying.

To those who cannot or are unwilling to hear what God is saying, you remain in your unbelief and the GOD WHO IS is unknowable to you.

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	Message 196 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:00 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 198 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:39 PM		John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 199 of 216 (499401)
02-18-2009 2:05 PM

Reply to: Message 198 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 1:39 PM

Re: Not Knowable

It still remains unexplained how you can know it really is god. Just saying that you know because you know doesn't explain how you know.

For you God remains unknowable because you are unwilling to believe that He exists and that God rewards and manifests Himself those who dilligently seek Him. You can go round and round in circles if you like by questioning how you can know if the true God is actually manifesting Himself to you, but those who dilligently seek Him and find Him just know because He is true to His word as revealed in the Bible. How do we know that the Bible is God's word to man? Because the things God said would happen to those who honor Jesus as Lord happens.

At some point unbelievers have to be willing to get off the train of unbelief if they truly want to know if God is knowable. But you have to do it God's way, not man's way, for there is no other name under heaven whereby man can be saved other than the Name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 4:12).

Blessings

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	Message 198 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:39 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 200 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 2:45 PM	John 10:10 has replied
	Message 203 by Stile, posted 02-19-2009 8:13 AM	John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 201 of 216 (499511)
02-18-2009 10:00 PM

Reply to: Message 200 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 2:45 PM

Re: Not Knowable

Me? No. I do believe in god.

You may believe in god, but you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

And since you are unable to distinguish between the devil tricking you into thinking that he is god manifesting himself to you and god himself actually manifesting himself to you, then you cannot really know that it really is god.

And since you are unable to believe in the God of the Bible, you are unable to distinguish between the devil tricking you anf the God who actually reveals and minifests Himself to those who honor Jesus as Lord.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 200 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 2:45 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 202 by Huntard, posted 02-19-2009 1:52 AM	John 10:10 has not replied
	Message 204 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-19-2009 11:46 AM	John 10:10 has replied
	Message 208 by lyx2no, posted 02-19-2009 5:39 PM	John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 205 of 216 (499646)
02-19-2009 3:25 PM

Reply to: Message 204 by New Cat's Eye
02-19-2009 11:46 AM

Re: Not Knowable

But I agree that I am unable to distinguish between the devil tricking me and god actually revealing himself to me, that is my position. But it also applies to you whether you believe it or not. Unless, of course, you can show HOW to distinguish between them. But if you are unable or unwilling, then you will remain wrong and Stile will remain right.

I stand corrected. You say you believe in the God of the Bible, but it seems you don't truly "know" Him.

Jesus said this in John 10:27-28,

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Those that hear Jesus and follow Him know the difference between the devil tricking them and Jesus speaking to them.

How does one distinguish between the devil and the Lord?

First, one must enter into the kingdom of God as Jesus explains in John 3:3-7,

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, `You must be born again.'

Second, follow these instructions given by Jesus in John 8:31-32,

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Third, follow these instructions given in James 4:7-8,

Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

Blessings

Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

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	Message 204 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-19-2009 11:46 AM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 206 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-19-2009 4:00 PM		John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 207 of 216 (499655)
02-19-2009 4:28 PM

Reply to: Message 206 by New Cat's Eye
02-19-2009 4:00 PM

God: Knowable

Faith is both a gift of the Holy Spirit and fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is imparted to Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ when they are born into the kingdom of God, and it grows in our lives as we yield ourselves to the Lordship of Jesus in our life.

In John 16 Jesus declared this would happen to those enter into the kingdom of God,

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

The Jesus that I "know", love and serve does exactly what He says He will do according to the words He has spoken in His word. The Holy Spirit then takes the things of Jesus and discloses them to me as I live by faith. Just because one can have knowledge of the things of Jesus does not mean that one does not still live by faith and by every word that proceeds (not preceeded) out of the mouth of God (Matt 4:4).

Blessings

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	Message 206 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-19-2009 4:00 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 209 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-20-2009 9:14 AM		John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10

Member (Idle past 3026 days)

Posts: 766

From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA

Joined: 02-01-2006

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Message 216 of 216 (499964)
02-21-2009 4:48 PM

Reply to: Message 209 by New Cat's Eye
02-20-2009 9:14 AM

God: Knowable

I certainly believe the devil can trick sinners and saints alike. But I have more faith to believe that the Lord Jesus reveals and manifests Himself to saints as we learn to abide in His word. Don't be too surprised when unbelievers don't seem to know the difference bewtween acts of the devil and the works of God.

If knowledge negates faith, then why is the gift of knowledge one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus gives?

It's how, when and where to use the gift of knowledge that requires faith.

Blessings

Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 209 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-20-2009 9:14 AM		New Cat's Eye has not replied

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