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Author | Topic: Why Would a Loving God Create Hell? | |||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:I've always liked this reversal of "Pascal's wager" that I first read in The Mind's I by Hofstadter and Dennett: If God is indeed a good and just god, then he couldn't send me into eternal damnation just because I don't believe in him. If God is not a good and just god, then I have no assurance that he will keep his end of the bargain even if I do believe in him. So there is no reason for me to worry about the consequences if I don't believe in him.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:A moral or just god would have not have anything to do with "states of eternal damnation". "Just God" and "eternal damnation" are contradictory ideas. Unless you are going to claim that God is not omnipotent, that there are laws that even she is subject to and cannot avoid.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:What is the proof? Please complete the following syllogism: premise: One would ask how that can be just. (put proof here) conclusion: Christianity is true.
quote:First, "that" is not yet a given until you prove it. Second, being able to ask a question does not mean that the words used in it have any meaning or existence. Third, the existence of injustice does not presuppose Christianity. quote:I am an atheist with (obviously) an atheistic view of the world. I would never claim that the most heinous crime imaginable will not be wrong. quote:Many cultures have a sense of right and wrong without being Christian. quote:Indeed, presupposed, but with no evidence.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:This is a false statement. quote:There are no univeral, absolute laws of morality. Nor are the laws of logic absolute - if you study formal logic you will find that there can be some variation in the laws of logic. quote:You have only asseted these two premises; you have not yet demonstrated them.If you were to write a mathematical proof in this manner in a class that I taught, I would give you a zero. quote:Not a single one of the above statements is true, except possibly the first, but that still has not been demostrated. quote:All standards of justice are arbitrary. quote:I am an atheist. I have a system of morality. My worldview can account for this. I have now disproved this statement. quote:There is no universal standard of right and wrong. I don't know how any philosopher would judge this, but as a mathematics instructor, if anyone were to write a mathematical proof this poorly they would get a zero for their efforts. Sorry to be harsh, but there isn't even any partial credit here.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:This is false. I am an atheist. Yet a place a high value on human life and freedom. quote:This does not follow. quote:What is being argued against is not living apart from God, which may be hell to some, but eternal torment and torture by burning. quote:Why not?
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote:I do not know whether there are universal absolutes withing my atheistic world view; you have not yet defined the term "universal absolute". Until you do so, the term is meaningless, and any statement containing it is empty. This isn't meant to be an insult - just that your reasoning is rather sloppy. Part of this is that you are using terms that you think that you understand, but the rest of us don't. And it is often the case that when you try to define what you mean you find out that you don't really understand it like you thought you did (this has happened to me on numerous occasions). quote:Sounds like medievel metaphysics to me. You seem to be saying that the formal systems of logic defined by humans may be an imperfect model of some absolute laws of logic that exists in the mind of God, or something like that. Seems like a Platonic notion of some sort. There is no evidence that there is some sort of absolute laws of logic that exist to be discovered by humans. quote:The "laws of morality" depend on the context of culture. There are no absolutes. The "laws of logic" are an artificial contruction (admittedly, as a mathematician, a useful invention) that is used to aid the reasoning ability of the human mind, which appears to work in a holistic manner unlike the linear thinking in formal logic. quote:There is no absolute morality, so I have nothing to prove - it is for you to prove the positive assertian. There is no absolute logic; logic is a human invention. There may or may not be universal truths - you have not yet defined this term. quote:Unfortunately, that everyone's intuitive nature seems to give a different standard of morality would seem to contradict a universal standard. There simply is no universal standard of right or wrong. Like beauty, morality is in the eye of the beholder. But I may be wrong - you have not yet defined what you mean by universal. quote:You are indeed suggesting, but not demonstrating. I do not find atheism to be unintelligible at all - if you can't understand it then that is your problem. I suggest you ask people to explain it to you before you go into a ill-defined, confused tirade about how illogical it all is.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Thanks, Intellect, you make some good points, but grace2u is trying to make an argument and so what matters is what he means by "universal absolute".
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