The "Circle of the Earth"

There is a thread in the "Education" forum - one of the subtopics is Isaiah 40:22: (this is the New Revised Standard Version; the King James Version doesn't seem to be substantially different).I'll post this here, since this forum is perhaps more appropriate for this topic - the original thread is about how to teach creationism in school biology classes.The claim made is that the word "circle" proves that the author of Isaiah knew that the earth is a sphere. I claim that this does nothing of the sort. First, "circle" simply is not appropriate to describe a sphere - if the author of this passage wanted to indicate this unambiguously, he would have used a more appropriate word; someone suggested that there should have at least been a word for "ball" in ancient Hebrew. On the other hand, the boundary of a disk is a circle, and so a circle is an appropriate word for the boundaries of a disk shaped earth.Also note that the heavens are compared to a tent - which brings in the idea of a tent spread over a flat earth floor. An interpretation involving a spherical earth seems a bit strained to me.I also note that nothing precludes the authors of Isaiah from knowing that the earth is a sphere - they may have used the metaphor of a tent over a flat earth as a poetic metaphor.edited to add: The title of this topic is supposed to be "The circle of the earth", but somehow it didn't seem to come out that way.[This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 11-09-2003]{Title fixed - The system does not permit (") marks in the titles, although admin fixes can include them - Adminnemooseus}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-09-2003]

Chioptera
I am the one who brought up the notion of a hebrew word for "ball" and I found the phrase,lo and behold in Isaiah.Isa 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee [like] a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory [shall be] the shame of thy lord's house.This I found in the Blue Letter Bible and they show the phrase "thee [like] a ball" as 'duwr' in hebrew.So it would appear they had the means to show a proper difference between circle and sphere.

Ah, yes, I tried to use the Blue Letter Bible also, but couldn't get a fix on the word for "circle". But I see that I wasn't using the reference correctly. The word in Isaiah 40:22 is listed as chuwg, which is listed as circle or compass (obviously related meanings that seem to preclude "sphere") or the "vault of heaven" which doesn't seem to fit this context.Thanks, sidelined.

I'm glad the circle was mentioned. Next you will tell us Isaiah meant a flat earth by saying circle. Ofcourse planets are more circular than flat, so these desperate attempts to discredit the obvious is quite amusing to me. Ofcourse if Isaiah was shown the earth , why wouldn't he call it a circle. This was a long time ago remember, and he probably thought it the most convenient word. For e.g if he seen a helicopter, would he say 'I saw a helicopter'- ofcourse not, he would come out with some 'then a day' explanation, closest to what would describe it. So these digs at the Bible are pretty petty desperado tactics.

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So these digs at the Bible are pretty petty desperado tactics.

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(Sigh) I hate to degenerate into a round of name-calling, but I get a sense of projection on your part, Mike. You probably don't even know what my point is in this discussion, do you?

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Ofcourse planets are more circular than flat

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No they are not. They are more sperical than flat. A circle is flat - it doesn't extend into the third dimension. Nobody with a vocabulary beyond the third grade is going to describe the earth as a circle. Or are you trying to say that the Hebrew word used here can sometimes mean "round, spherical, three-dimensional thingy?" I don't know modern Hebrew, much less ancient Hebrew, so is this an attested possibility?There is another possible word to use to describe a three dimensional ball, as already stated. Why not use the more accurate word to describe the spherical earth?

The fact is, anyone can see what the circle means(in Isaiah) by looking at the earth today. You missed the point of my post. Yes these are desperado tactics, as I don't see any other 'books' being bashed in this way. It is obvious to any reasonable person what 'circle' means in this case. The book is not modern. (helicopter e.g)(That's a little harsh, I'll leave it out)[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-10-2003]

Also, the stretching of the heavens is absolutely true. From Creation the heavens have been stretched and the stars multiplied (Genesis). Even your big bang theory and the theory of everything, both back this up.I apologise if I was a bit harsh. This isn't the worst case of 'trash bashing' I've seen before now. Infact I was severe, sorry.

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The fact is, anyone can see what the circle means(in Isaiah) by looking at the earth today.

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But the authors of Isaiah weren't looking at the earth today - they were looking at the earth based on whatever was current belief back then. You can't say that "Of course, today we know that the earth is sphere, therefore this is what Isaiah must have meant over two and a half millenia ago."

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It is obvious to any reasonable person what 'circle' means in this case. The book is not modern.

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I agree. So why are you having so much trouble with this?

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This isn't the worst case of 'trash bashing'

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I don't see how I'm trashing or bashing anything.

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Infact I was severe, sorry.

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Did you edit it out? Because I didn't see anything needing an apology.

'I agree. So why are you having so much trouble with this? 'Because 'sits above the circle of the earth' Be honest, what picture comes to your mind? I'll give you a clue, look at this :

I think that Isaiah was still leagues ahead of his time in saying this while his society believed a flat rectangular earth was correct.------------------
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." -JesusJohn 3:3

Mike, I agree, it's pretty easy to say circle while thinking or looking at a sphere...

'Did you edit it out? Because I didn't see anything needing an apology.'Yes, it was just 'this trash bashing of the Bible'. But it was unnecessary as your topic is nothing compared to some I've read.

My thoughts entirely. I mean it's quite a shocker for his day, coupled with stretching the heavens.

What the verse tells me is that the biblical author of Isiah looked at physical phenomena through the lens of what was understood during his age. It has been argued that the idea six day creation was not affected by the lack of scientific knowledge during biblical times but rather an infallible truth sent down by God and written down almost verbatim. If it can be shown that mistakes were made in reference to natural phenomena because of understandable ignorance due to lack of knowledge, then the six day creation can be understood in that light. To me, the six day creation is an allegory for the relationship between the Christian/Jewish God and his people. We should learn moral lessons from it, but not apply it to things which are easily refuted through scienctific inquiry.[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 11-10-2003]