Animal Intelligence and Evolution/Creation

Hi there. I just wanted to make a simple point really. You have been citing human technology (747s, cities etc..) as something utterly different and unreachable by animals. I agree, but isn't it also true to say that for 99% of the existence of the human race, these things were utterly unreachable by humans too? Its easy to forget that for that human societies that use agriculture and undergo industrialisation are not necessarily representative of the majority of human societies that have existed (and still exist).If we look at prehistoric/pre-agriculture humans, then they are probably still capable of more cultural complexity than crows, but I think it is more of a quantitative difference than a qualitative one.I think a lot of the things that we would think of as characteristically human are actually culturally aquired rather than innate. Of course, this prompts the question, where did the culture come from, and I'm not sure.

You say that we could teach Moses to use an Ipod, and this demonstrates that humans are pretty special. My (very speculative) response is this: - if a sufficiently complex crow culture was allowed to evolve in the future, couldn't they take a modern day crow forward to use their ipods? Okay. That sounds sillier than it was meant to.

Yay! I'm glad somebody likes me.. I often get the feeling that my contributions are politely ignored, like the batty ramblings of a senile aunt.. so I'm glad that's not the case here at least! I've thought about your response, and I've only got time now to write down the first thing that came to my mind, so forgive me if its a bit sketchy.How do we know that (to use my favourite example again) crows WON'T be using complex language and wearing air cushioned trainers in the future? If Einstein's brilliance would have been invisible in the Neolithic, are there crow-Einsteins strutting around now that, because they aren't in a complex enough crow-ish culture, aren't getting their potentially mind-melting, profound and brilliant abstract thoughts out of their heads?

Gaaa! I wish I was able to check this place more often. I bet someone's already responded to this one.. but I can't... resist... doing so too.I'm having a real trouble with your thinking here, Mike. When you were saying that humans could defy nature and fly, I was thinking you meant with planes and stuff. Now I'm not so sure. You seem to be saying that when a chimp uses a hammer and anvil, that's not impressive because they are using "natural resources"? can you name a human engineering or design feat that DOESN'T use natural resources?The implication is that we fly with unnatural resources. I'm having visions of magic broomsticks or something. I'm now going to read on and find that this has already been explained... ah well.

Now I've read on a bit further... and I'm still wondering what you mean. It sounds as though you are asking the other two to prove that animals will one day develop technology that allows them to "trancend their morphology"* That's a pretty difficult task you've set them, isn't it? Maybe impossible. But we don't have to talk about maybes and what-ifs. The evidence of animal tool use is all around us now.I think it was RAZD who linked to that article about crows that make tools from sticks. Assuming that this is true, then I can't think of any less ambiguous example of an animal "trancending its morphology" than this. It would be really helpful if you could explain why this exact equivalence doesn't work for you... I think then I might be able to get more of an understanding of your position.If you were to go back in time and see a couple of prehistoric men flint-knapping, isn't that directly equivalent to the crows making termite sticks? Would you pish and shrug and say that the prehistoric humans were just manipulating natural resources? Would you say with any confidnece that since their ancestors had done it for tens of thousands of years before them, that they would never develop more complex technologies? Clearly you'd be wrong if you did.*at a tangent... if bikes are the most efficient self-powered locomotive solution for a being with human morphology in an earth-like environment - I've wondered for ages what would a squid bike or a cow bike would look like... hey, or maybe a human moon bike, or a camel mars bike!