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Author Topic:   New Hubble pictures, YEC explanations just don't make sense.
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 18 of 129 (91828)
03-11-2004 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Reef
03-11-2004 6:33 PM


Reef,
That photograph is circumstancial evidence and your arguments using such evidence are purely speculation.
That would be an argument based upon EVIDENCE, then, & not speculation?
The currently accepted age of the universe is based upon the extrapolation of velocities of galaxies. Evidence not speculation, right?
Are you a YEC?
Mark
[This message has been edited by mark24, 03-11-2004]

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 6:33 PM Reef has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 7:37 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 24 of 129 (91834)
03-11-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Reef
03-11-2004 7:37 PM


Reef,
Theories not evidence...your arguments would not stand up in a court of law... there are to many indescrepencies
It doesn't have to stand in a court of law, but why wouldn't it?
The only thing that wouldn't stand in a court of law is the word "indescrepencies". Is that lawyerspeak for not addressing the evidence?
The observations of the galaxies & their red shifts are evidence, not theory. It is a direct observation. What those red-shifts mean is theory. That would be like standing in a magistrates court explaining how stupid they are to book you for speeding because the Doppler shift is mere theory, & therefore radar guns are an invalid means of determining velocity. I'd like to see how you get on, Reef, really.
I ask again, are you a YEC?
Mark

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 7:37 PM Reef has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 7:52 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 28 of 129 (91839)
03-11-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Reef
03-11-2004 7:52 PM


Reef,
You really think you could appear in a court of law and testify to what the universe looked like 13 billion!!! years ago?
come on you have to admit you would be purely guessing using a slight bit of evidence that could quite easily be wrong.
No, I couldn't. But a cosmologist could. Under the Federal Rules of Evidence an expert witness may testify as to the strength of scientific evidence that supports a theory as being indicative of reality. Just because you know nothing of cosmology, physics, astronomy doesn't mean no-one does.
No i'm not a YEC but u do realise there is a probability that they could be right.
You mean a tiny chance that a vast wealth of corroborative evidence that the universe is > 6,000 years old that represents odds that are beyond astronomical of them being wrong? I'll concede that. But then there's a chance that if I jump out of an airplane without a parachute from 40,000 feet I may survive.
I'm not jumping, you?
Mark
[This message has been edited by mark24, 03-11-2004]

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 7:52 PM Reef has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 7:57 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 34 of 129 (91848)
03-11-2004 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Reef
03-11-2004 7:57 PM


Reef,
Tell me something in this world that is 100% certain?
Oh no! There is a huge difference between a vast wealth of evidence supporting the theory that the universe is > 6,000 years old & the ZERO empirical evidence that supports the opposite. This isn't a post modernist exercise where all ideas have an equal chance of being true.
There is no empirical evidence whatsoever that the earth is 6,000 years old. There is an ENORMOUS amount of evidence from different disciplines that corroborate in many details about the earth & universe being old.
Let me put it another way. There is no evidence whatsoever that you could hold your breath unaided for 24 hours underwater. There is a wealth of evidence that it would kill you. Do you want me to hold your head under water because there is a tincy wincy chance I might be wrong?
No? Thought not!
But how can you be certain without trying? Or are you going to allow yourself to be informed by the wealth of evidence that points one way & not the other? I ask only that you be consistent.
Mark

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 7:57 PM Reef has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 8:18 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 46 of 129 (91876)
03-11-2004 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Reef
03-11-2004 8:18 PM


Reef,
its a good job columbus didnt listen to you a few hundred years ago isnt it with all that evidence that the world is flat i mean where would be today.
It was known that the world was spherical in Columbus' day. So he would have found the Americas if he'd listened to me. The Greeks & Egyptians knew the earth was curved, too.
If anything has been proven throughout history...its that 9 times out of 10 theories are very very wrong.
Not good enough. A VAST body of evidence requires an equally VAST body of evidence to overturn it. Most of the theories you are talking about are barely past the hypothesis stage. Once a theory starts seeing it's predictions born out they are almost never overturned by a paradigm shift. Why? The very thing I've been trying fruitlessly to communicate to you. A LARGE body of corroborative evidence needs to be explained away in a better fashion than the original theory. Most theories, nay, ALL of them undergo revision, but that doesn't make them very, very wrong, does it?
Take the Greenland ice cores, for example. Two miles thick with distict bi-banding all the way to the bottom. The summer layers are frosty & airy, the winter more homogenous ice. Summer snow contains more acid reducing it's conductivity relative to winter snow. Summer snow contains more hydrogen peroxide than winter snow. Every 11 years more Beryllium 10 is produced in the upper atmosphere due to the sunspot cycle. Summer & winter bands possess different oxygen isotope ratios due to different evaporative properties.
All of the above phenomenon (bar the first) can be traced all the way to the bottom of the ice sheet, that is winter-summer-winter-summer etc. Major eruptions like vesuvius leave their marks where they are supposed to. The leaded fuel era is represented. The predicted changes are exactly where they are supposed to be vis-a-vis the ice ages as dated by other methods, including the correct pollen & dust levels, a near perfect correlation. There are 110,000 banded couplets representing 110,000 years. Now you need to explain via legitimate logical inference based upon empirical observation as to why banded couplets occur in the Greenland ice sheet (nay, ALL ice sheets) that possess the above phenomena in such a way that denies the link to annual deposition. If you can't do it then your "9/10th of theories are very, very wrong" baloney isn't holding much water, is it?
This is what a robust, evidentially well supported theory looks like. It's not so easy to overturn a paradigm with no evidence, is it? A bare assertion that it must be wrong because 9 out of 10 were previously (& I dispute the number & level of "wrongness", but nevermind) is meaningless, evidenceless, wishful thinking with no logical imperative or power.
This is a SINGLE line of evidence showing the earth to be at least 110,000 years old.
Newton was gospel before Einstein...
Still is....
now evidence is finally being compilled against Einsteins theories.
Such as? I bet you have no paradigm shifting evidence at all as to his theories that were accepted 10 years ago but are now allegedly falsified.
We shud never stop asking the question of whether what we take to be true is wrong... otherwise my dear fellow you'd still wake up hoping that u dont fall of the end of the earth one day!
Incidentally, have you ever left you country of birth with the fear that your plane/boat was going to fall off the end of the earth? No? Makes you look a bit hypocritical, no? Surely you are giving the spherical earth hypothesis a bit to much credibility? I mean, a logical corollary of your argument thus far is that we should seriously consider a flat earth hypothesis despite the evidence to the contrary? May I respectfully suggest that you think twice before you get on a ship or plane again?
Otherwise, I quite agree, it's how science works. But make NO mistake, a highly supported theory is going nowhere without a mountain of contradictory evidence, it's the newer theories that get the major revisions, the older ones are simply so well supported that a paradigm shift is very, very unlikely. How likely do you think a return to a flat earth paradigm is?
Does the word "tentativity" mean anything to you?
The reason we accept old age theories of the earth/universe is because they are evidentially robust, just like the spherical earth hypothesis. The reason we reject young earth hypotheses is because they have no supporting evidence of their own, & are in fact contradicted by evidence, just like the flat earth hypotheses.
I doubt you've ever worried about falling off the edge of the earth, why dispute the age of the earth/universe?
Mark

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 8:18 PM Reef has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 48 of 129 (91878)
03-11-2004 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Reef
03-11-2004 9:01 PM


I agree with Eta, if the magnification were good enough, yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 9:01 PM Reef has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Reef, posted 03-11-2004 9:14 PM mark24 has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 110 of 129 (92030)
03-12-2004 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Reef
03-12-2004 2:52 AM


Reef,
Can I assume you accept the YEC timeline is falsified re the Greenland ice cores & the multiple lines of evidence that point to the banded layers being annual deposits, since you never responded to that thread?
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Reef, posted 03-12-2004 2:52 AM Reef has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Navy10E, posted 03-12-2004 4:20 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 124 by BobAliceEve, posted 03-12-2004 10:21 PM mark24 has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 116 of 129 (92053)
03-12-2004 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Navy10E
03-12-2004 4:20 AM


Navy,
I looked through this convoluted topic for quite a while, and I got an idea, but I'm still a lil unsure of what you mean by the Greenland ice cores. What I think you mean is the layers of types of ice found in Greenland. I'm assuming that it is your belief that each set of layers is created annually. Is that where you were going? Or said?
Yep, & I said it here; http://EvC Forum: New Hubble pictures, YEC explanations just don't make sense., & presented multiple lines of evidence that attest to the conclusion that annual layers are represented in the Greenland ice cores.
Open a new thread if you want to contest this, this one has diverged enough (holds hand up).
Mark

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Navy10E, posted 03-12-2004 4:20 AM Navy10E has not replied

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