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Author Topic:   Popular Vote vs Electoral College
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 61 of 118 (903794)
12-16-2022 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 5:04 PM


Re: Proportional EC better but not as good
AZPaul3 writes:
I don't get this. Just because your side lost does not mean you were disenfranchised.
I vote BLUE, so this time my side won. What I am talking about is a Republican voter in Massachusetts feeling that his or her vote is a waste of time. Or a Democrat in Arkansas, for example. I know someone who was a Republican and he moved to Maine where his vote would count. He was sort of an asshole anyway, so I didn't mind him leaving. BUT he definitely felt disenfranchised here in Massachusetts. Capisch?
Last election swing states included Nevada, Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan, interior states all. And the list changes every election.

What are you talking about?
And Florida, hardly interior. What I'm talking about is removing State boundaries completely so the California Republican can team up with her South Dakota Republican relative and both votes count equally. And my friends in Arkansas can team up with me in Massachusetts and have our votes count equally. Get rid of the EC completely. Explain to the Wyoming voter that now all their relatives in California can now have their vote count just as much.
AND make all campaigning ILLEGAL. Have the League of Women Voters post weekly lists of every candidate's voting record and positions on the issues, not only through an election cycle, but every week in perpetuity.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 5:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 6:21 PM xongsmith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 62 of 118 (903797)
12-16-2022 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by xongsmith
12-16-2022 5:33 PM


Re: Proportional EC better but not as good
Capisch?
Bullshit. That is NOT being disenfranchised. That is losing the election. Doesn't matter if it happens multiple elections in a row. You voted. You lost. You were NOT disenfranchised. Capisce?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 5:33 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 7:31 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 63 of 118 (903806)
12-16-2022 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 6:21 PM


Re: Proportional EC better but not as good
AZPaul3 writes:
Bullshit. That is NOT being disenfranchised. That is losing the election. Doesn't matter if it happens multiple elections in a row. You voted. You lost. You were NOT disenfranchised. Capisce?
where do you get "multiple elections in a row" from? you are not listening. i am talking about BEFORE the election.
technically you are correct, but listen: I vote Blue and we won. its the Repugnant voters living in Massachusetts who _feel_ disenfranchised, not me. one even left the state to move to Maine. they feel they're disenfranchised before they even vote, often not even bothering to vote at all.
i maintain that there are more of these kind of people on the coastal states than all of the so-called fly-over states combined that hardly get attention anyway. the attention is given to swing states because of the horrible EC Winner-Take-All rules for 48 of the 50. and there are solid Red states, too, like Arkansas, South Carolina (an east coast state) and so on. why penalize someone because of the state they are living in?
your solution is great, but mine is better because of your round-off errors to shrink the total popular vote down into the number of EC boxes. look at how the number of EC boxes is determined by adding the 2 Senators to the number of Representatives. We already tally the total population vote accurately anyway.
So what did you think of my plan to outlaw campaigning? especially the impact it would have on campaign financing (reducing that to ZERO)?

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 6:21 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 7:45 PM xongsmith has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 64 of 118 (903809)
12-16-2022 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by xongsmith
12-16-2022 7:31 PM


Re: Proportional EC better but not as good
think of it this way: the current Winner-Take-All method we have today "discards" all the loser votes - it throws them out by the tens of millions, some on one side, some on the other side, state by unequally sized state. the popular vote adds them all up in a big national total on each side, or even a third party, too. your argument over what that does to campaigning in Podunk, Idaho versus Manhattan, NY is true if you allow campaigning in the first place.
imagine if the Koch brothers couldn't send a penny. Or Big Oil. Or Big Pharma.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 7:31 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 9:19 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 65 of 118 (903812)
12-16-2022 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by xongsmith
12-16-2022 7:45 PM


Re: Proportional EC better
in California alone the totals were
Dem Rep
11,110,250 6,006,429
About 47% of registered voters are Democrats, 24% are Republicans, and 23% are independents.
as of date - - - - registered, voted, percent
11/8/2022 497,561 310,071 62.32%
So about 38% of the voters did not vote. Assuming a similar rate, the 6,006,429 Republicans that did vote were thrown into the trash barrel. yeah, tough on them. But it means that somewhere around 4 million did not vote. How many of them just gave up and felt they had been "disenfranchised" and their vote wouldn't count anyway, since Winner-Takes-All? Maybe half or 2 million. I contend that this would swamp out the fly-over Republican votes unfairly represented today by the EC, when you add in the other solid BLUE state Republican give-ups. Although in this case, being a BLUE voter i am happy about that, on a Neutral, Objective Level this is wrong in a democracy. Winner-Take-All must be abolished.
I would whole-hearted endorse AZPaul3's plan of a kind of Maine/Nebraska splitting the EC, if we cannot get rid of it entirely.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 7:45 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 10:33 PM xongsmith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 66 of 118 (903814)
12-16-2022 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by xongsmith
12-16-2022 9:19 PM


Re: Proportional EC better
So if we went to a popular vote for president and your red friend lost, would you or he consider himself disenfranchised?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 9:19 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 10:39 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 67 of 118 (903815)
12-16-2022 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 10:33 PM


Re: Proportional EC better
AZPaul3 still doesn't get it:
So if we went to a popular vote for president and your red friend lost, would you or he consider himself disenfranchised?
Don't be silly. Of course not.
He wouldn't have to fret about living in a state where his vote would be thrown away.
It would remain alive until the final national tally was determined.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 10:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 10:43 PM xongsmith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 68 of 118 (903816)
12-16-2022 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by xongsmith
12-16-2022 10:39 PM


Re: Proportional EC better
In his state his vote was "thrown away" because he and his lost the election. If you define disenfranchised that way it should apply equally at any level. Now he lives in a nation that just threw out his vote.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 10:39 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by xongsmith, posted 12-17-2022 12:22 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 69 of 118 (903820)
12-17-2022 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 10:43 PM


Re: Proportional EC better
AZPaul3:
In his state his vote was "thrown away" because he and his lost the election. If you define disenfranchised that way it should apply equally at any level. Now he lives in a nation that just threw out his vote.
First off *I*, personally, don't define "disenfranchised" that way. It was the way some Republican friends here in Massachusetts were *feeling" about it. It was thrown away because of our agreed evil in the "Winner-Take-All" rules of 48 states. I mean, why are we arguing? We agree that the EC Winner-Take-All as it stands today has got to go.
Secondly, you are right that the nation just threw out his vote, along with all the other losing votes. But he didn't know until the end. There would be no Cronkite type coming on while voting was still going on out west with "...and now we can project that Biden has won Massachusetts...."
In your scenario, the Cronkite type might say that "we project that Massachusetts has now come in with 7 electors for Biden, 4 for Trump and 1 for Bernie and 1 for Johnson." and the totals would then be updated on a big board on TV while voting continued out west. Exciting.
Whereas, in my scenario, there would be nothing to report yet. Boring.
That's true......

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 10:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2022 3:54 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-17-2022 11:23 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 70 of 118 (903824)
12-17-2022 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by xongsmith
12-17-2022 12:22 AM


Re: Proportional EC better
I mean, why are we arguing?
Well, uh, it's EvC and we do that here?
Besides, I was tired of Kleinman.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by xongsmith, posted 12-17-2022 12:22 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 71 of 118 (903841)
12-17-2022 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by xongsmith
12-17-2022 12:22 AM


Re: Proportional EC better
xongsmith writes:
I mean, why are we arguing?
You're demonstrating to people like Phat that "we" don't always march in lockstep.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by xongsmith, posted 12-17-2022 12:22 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 72 of 118 (903883)
12-18-2022 12:10 AM


The USA is a very Scary country
I think the most frightening thing in the last election was the popular vote:
Popular vote 81,283,501 to 74,223,975
74+ million IDIOTS! WTF???
it should have been Biden winning 141 million to 14 million at best.
the EC went 306-232, so in this case it favored the Dems more than it should have.
Still it has to go. By population percentage it would have been closer to 276-262.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by nwr, posted 12-18-2022 12:19 AM xongsmith has not replied
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 12:13 PM xongsmith has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6244
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 73 of 118 (903884)
12-18-2022 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by xongsmith
12-18-2022 12:10 AM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
74+ million IDIOTS! WTF???
You might as well get used to it. Those are our neighbors or our fellow citizens.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by xongsmith, posted 12-18-2022 12:10 AM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 11:17 AM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 74 of 118 (903908)
12-18-2022 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by nwr
12-18-2022 12:19 AM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
I would be more scared of a one-party government. The dear leader could be elected for life! And your assumption that 74 million are idiots also indirectly assumes that One Party possesses all of the intelligence and rationality of the people at large. I'm here to challenge that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by nwr, posted 12-18-2022 12:19 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 12-18-2022 11:42 AM Phat has replied
 Message 81 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-18-2022 4:15 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 12-19-2022 12:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6244
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 75 of 118 (903910)
12-18-2022 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
12-18-2022 11:17 AM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
I would be more scared of a one-party government.
I certainly am not advocating that.
And your assumption that 74 million are idiots also indirectly assumes that One Party possesses all of the intelligence and rationality of the people at large.
LOL.
If we ever finish up with a one-party government, it will be the idiot party that takes control.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 11:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 12:11 PM nwr has replied

  
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