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Author Topic:   Popular Vote vs Electoral College
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 91 of 118 (903987)
12-19-2022 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by AZPaul3
12-19-2022 6:35 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
In today's world then, as usual, it depends on whether California is in play or is it well set. If prospects and polls are good for a party then it's not a battleground state. So who has the largest electoral vote that's within 3% differential? That is a battleground state, like Illinois or Michigan.
Why would Illinois or Michigan be a "battleground state" in a population wins election? Your talking about maybe flipping one elector proportionately. And you still have the undemocratic 2 Senators per state regardless of their population. So you still have Wyoming getting more power per voter than California. So now you modify the EC by removing the Senators and have to put up with the howling from the sparse states - and you'd need 3/4 of the states to go along? You would still see campaigning on the heavily populated states because there you can maybe get more than one elector to flip per dollar spent at each event. Getting the money out by making it illegal would give all those electrons bouncing around in our emails pleading us to send "just another $7" a well-deserved rest. And my delete finger over each of those emails. An Avogadro's Number over the whole nation!
No you cannot outlaw a candidate from giving a speech or hosting a community talk or a neighborhood bbq. This is still America.
yes...but I can dream, can't I?
Advertising sucks. It reveals how stupid we all are.
The League of Women Voters could put up the objective hard evidence in a weekly list of all voting and positions held by the candidates. What candidates actually DO is more important than what they SAY.
Seems fair.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2022 6:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 12:31 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 92 of 118 (903988)
12-20-2022 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by xongsmith
12-19-2022 11:27 PM


Re: Proportional EC
Why would Illinois or Michigan be a "battleground state" in a population wins election?
Today's world is electoral college, not popular vote. I wasn't addressing pop vote.
Your question from Message 89
quote:
But in a proportional EC system, which ones are swing states? Do you schmooze the 3 elector state of Wyoming or the 55 elector state of California?
That's what I was answering.
And you still have the undemocratic 2 Senators per state regardless of their population.
Who's talking democracy? We are a republic. At the time of the formation the political dynamics were different. If I don't get my 2 senators then you don't get your republic. The majority can be harsh and I want protection.
In a popular election for president, no EC votes or by state votes, just national totals, there would not be any battleground states. The battle will be for the hearts and minds of the voters regardless of location. That means the coasts 150 million voters will be the major portion of the 200 million national totals.
Now, in a modified electoral college, I find it more than appropriate to give the two at-large votes to the overall popular winner in the state. They did get the majority of the states vote. The rest going to the congressional district winners. For 2020, Arizona would have had 4 votes for red and 7 for blue. I was happy with the 11 blue but the modified result is more accurate.
The major issue for us is how to get this one very doable change made. A wholesale re-write of the constitution (long, long overdue) is not going to happen.
The League of Women Voters could put up the objective hard evidence in a weekly list of all voting and positions held by the candidates.
Seems fair.
They should do that regardless but not as an enforced monopoly.
I'm a free speech nut. Let the bozos and the liars and the good guys talk till their vocal chords fall out. If we, the people, aren't good enough to notice the difference then that's on us, not so much the system.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by xongsmith, posted 12-19-2022 11:27 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-20-2022 3:34 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 93 of 118 (904016)
12-20-2022 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by AZPaul3
12-19-2022 6:35 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
No you cannot outlaw a candidate from giving a speech or hosting a community talk or a neighborhood bbq. This is still America.
They did outlaw teaching slaves to read. So things can change, even in America.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2022 6:35 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-20-2022 3:27 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 94 of 118 (904040)
12-20-2022 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
12-20-2022 10:58 AM


Them's Fighting Words
If you or anyone else, be it woke Democrats or Chinese Communists ever tried to control free speech (or private property rights) the United States would enter a Civil War.
Of course, hate speech is a separate issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 12-20-2022 10:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 12-22-2022 11:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 95 of 118 (904041)
12-20-2022 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by AZPaul3
12-20-2022 12:31 AM


Is A Republic Popular?
AZ writes:
Who's talking (about) democracy? We are a republic.
That's something I need to ask Mr.Dictionary and his bohemian wifey, Wiki about. What is the difference between a Democracy and a Republic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 12:31 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Theodoric, posted 12-20-2022 4:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 97 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 4:45 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 100 by dwise1, posted 12-20-2022 7:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 96 of 118 (904042)
12-20-2022 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-20-2022 3:34 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
For all intents and purposes. A republic is a type of democracy. There are direct and indirect democracies. A republic is an indirect democracy.
There are doctoral thesis written on the subject, but that is the core.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-20-2022 3:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 97 of 118 (904043)
12-20-2022 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-20-2022 3:34 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
Pure majority vote versus elected officials constrained by checks and balances.
Xongsmith mentioned that 2 senators per state regardless of population was undemocratic.
He's right, from a pure democracy point of view, but The USofA was formed as a republic with 2 senators per state as a check on the majority so we don't care.
quote:
The Founding Fathers of the United States often criticised direct democracy, which in their view often came without the protection of a constitution enshrining inalienable rights; James Madison argued, especially in The Federalist No. 10, that what distinguished a direct democracy from a republic was that the former became weaker as it got larger and suffered more violently from the effects of faction, whereas a republic could get stronger as it got larger and combats faction by its very structure.
Democracy - Wikipedia

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-20-2022 3:34 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by xongsmith, posted 12-20-2022 5:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 98 of 118 (904046)
12-20-2022 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by AZPaul3
12-20-2022 4:45 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
AZPaul3 writes:
Pure majority vote versus elected officials constrained by checks and balances.
The USofA was formed as a republic with 2 senators per state as a check on the majority so we don't care.
quote:
The Founding Fathers of the United States often criticised direct democracy, which in their view often came without the protection of a constitution enshrining inalienable rights; James Madison argued, especially in The Federalist No. 10, that what distinguished a direct democracy from a republic was that the former became weaker as it got larger and suffered more violently from the effects of faction, whereas a republic could get stronger as it got larger and combats faction by its very structure.
There seems to have been a concern that the popular vote could lead to a looney getting elected, after the slave states were brought in.
If the setup created a Democratic Republic through an Electoral College of representative electors, then why did it Fail so Totally in preventing an established looney from getting elected via the very thing that was installed to prevent a looney from winning over the Popular vote winner in 2016???
hmmm? answer me that.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 4:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Theodoric, posted 12-20-2022 7:23 PM xongsmith has replied
 Message 102 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 9:49 PM xongsmith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 99 of 118 (904048)
12-20-2022 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by xongsmith
12-20-2022 5:53 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
Because we now have a totally different electorate and our political system has changed extensively since the founding.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by xongsmith, posted 12-20-2022 5:53 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by xongsmith, posted 12-20-2022 8:03 PM Theodoric has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5563
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 100 of 118 (904049)
12-20-2022 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-20-2022 3:34 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
AZPaul3 writes:
Who's talking (about) democracy? We are a republic.
His entire quote was:
AZPaul3 writes:
Who's talking democracy? We are a republic. At the time of the formation the political dynamics were different. If I don't get my 2 senators then you don't get your republic. The majority can be harsh and I want protection.
I read him as describing how the sausage got made. That goes along with the adage, usually attributed to Otto von Bismarck: "“If you like laws and sausages, you should never watch either one being made.” With all the politicking and negotiating and compromising with everybody whose vote you're trying to get adding extra riders or getting other parts removed or modified, even if you started out with a very good bill what you end up tends to be a "Frankenbill", which the LA Times described as "an awkward creation stitched together from scraps of this and that." -- though examples of Frankenbills abound in every legislature.
I see that as the point that AZPaul3 was making. The US Constitution is not an integral whole which was created out of whole cloth and which works seamlessly (having no seams having been created out of whole cloth), but rather it was created as a Frankenbill created from compromises to satisfy enough disparate special interests to get some kind of final product that nobody could be happy with but at least not unhappy enough to block it.
The Electoral College is one example of such a compromise. Having each state represented by two senators regardless of population is another example. And to make matters worse, senators were not elected directly by the people, but rather by their state's legislature -- it took the Seventeenth Amendment (1912, which was also when the 48th state, Arizona, became a state along with New Mexico (Oklahoma was in 1907)) to change that to having senators elected directly by the people.
What is the difference between a Democracy and a Republic?
Already answered by others, but raising that question has become common among far-right trolls (remember how Faith kept dredging up that nonsense) in their efforts to generate confusion as they "own the libs".
The structure of our government is a republic, borrowed by James Madison from Roman government, including the Senate. Direct democracy did not work in Athens because citizens had work and a living to attend to and couldn't take so much time off. In a republican system (lower case, you will notice), representatives are selected to do the voting for their constituents.
How those representatives are selected is the other question. We do it democratically (lower case "d") by holding democratic elections -- though as noted above, before 1912 we did not elect our senators directly.
 
Gotta get ready to go out. Going out to see a show with my son who's visiting from Florida.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-20-2022 3:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 101 of 118 (904051)
12-20-2022 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Theodoric
12-20-2022 7:23 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
of course.
so why is anyone defending the EC?
to give voice to the interior states, my ass.
Again, AZPaul3's proportional EC is a vast improvement, but then which states would become "swing states", which sort of implies vaguely still thinking in a "Winner-Take-All" rule state of mind. And Wyoming still has 4 times as much power per voter as California.
I've been thinking (Danger, Wil Robinson!) and a Proportional EC might also increase the chance of a tie, or, more likely, neither side getting a majority, with 3rd & 4th parties getting an Elector or 2. Then, according to the Constitution, it devolves to the states to vote, 1 vote per state and, once again, effectively this means that Land gets to vote.
so i repeat: if the EC was to prevent an emotional public from electing a loon, why did it so abysmally fail in 2016 (and also in 2000)?
it effectively installed a loon over the Popular much saner vote, exactly the opposite of what it was supposed to do.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Theodoric, posted 12-20-2022 7:23 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 10:18 PM xongsmith has replied
 Message 104 by Theodoric, posted 12-20-2022 10:56 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied
 Message 105 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 11:07 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 102 of 118 (904052)
12-20-2022 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by xongsmith
12-20-2022 5:53 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
hmmm? answer me that.
hmmm ... maybe because of a flaw in the process we've known about for 200+ years and have been too stupid to fix? Maybe because of the gaping hole in the electoral college that we have been talking about?
The system wasn't set up to keep would-be tyrants out. The EC was not "the very thing that was installed to prevent a looney from winning". That was not a consideration in its formation. Nor could it ever have that effect.
The framers knew (read the Federalist Papers) the passions of the people and knew no system could keep a groundswell of stupid from election. Other structures in the constitution were to address that. To paraphrase Ben Franklin: Impeachment was not tightly defined so the nation wouldn't have to suffer a nincompoop.
That is where the republican senate failed the nation.
We have more than one gaping hole in this constitution to fill.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by xongsmith, posted 12-20-2022 5:53 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by xongsmith, posted 12-21-2022 2:24 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 103 of 118 (904053)
12-20-2022 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by xongsmith
12-20-2022 8:03 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
Again, AZPaul3's proportional EC is a vast improvement, but then which states would become "swing states", which sort of implies vaguely still thinking in a "Winner-Take-All" rule state of mind.
If you find it a problem then get off this self-imposed mindset of winner-take-all. The reality would be quite different and so would the political strategy.
Do you know what a swing state, a battleground state, is? Do you know what gives a state that designation?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by xongsmith, posted 12-20-2022 8:03 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by xongsmith, posted 12-21-2022 2:03 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 104 of 118 (904054)
12-20-2022 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by xongsmith
12-20-2022 8:03 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
Been ignoring this topic at is another display of Phat's ignorance and trolling. The EC needs to be abolished as we abolished state legislatures appointing Senators. If we are going to move toward "a more perfect union" we must remove the ant-democratic legacies left in The Constitution.
We must continue what the founders tasked us to do. Continue to improve the flawed framework they came up with.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by xongsmith, posted 12-20-2022 8:03 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2022 11:43 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-21-2022 9:33 AM Theodoric has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 105 of 118 (904055)
12-20-2022 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by xongsmith
12-20-2022 8:03 PM


Re: Is A Republic Popular?
to give voice to the interior states, my ass.
I think you confuse intent with side effect. The EC is not there to give interior states a share of the largess of political limelight. Battleground states, internal or coastal, develop as a result of that specific years election's own political dynamic.
In every election I looked up there are a number of the interior states garnering extra special attention from both candidates. So, yes, in the absence of any other data, right now, our electoral college scheme creates battleground states, many not coastal, where candidates flock. This has the effect, not the intent, of giving more states more political influence.
This is contrast to a direct popular election for president where states don't count and only density of population determines where the campaigns would focus.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by xongsmith, posted 12-20-2022 8:03 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
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