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Author Topic:   Popular Vote vs Electoral College
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 31 of 118 (903661)
12-14-2022 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 7:15 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
The majority within those two voting blocks along the coasts determines the election.
But if it was by Population, your vote in California would count just as much as your vote in South Dakota. So if you were Republican and lived in California or Massachusetts, your vote would still count in the national totals. IT IS the Winner Take All that is the problem. Get rid of that. But assigning electors proportionately - while a vast improvement - still has a screensize resolution problem. Maine (I think) divides their 5 electors by popular vote, which means that the voting population is divided by 5 to REPRESENT Maine, when they could just use the raw numbers. It may have made sense when the voting was reported back to D.C. on horseback and no one had a telephone, but now we can count right down to the 155 millionth vote.
I know someone who actually moved to Maine from Massachusetts so his Republican vote would count. Now I vote BLUE BLUE BLUE, so I am okay for now.
There is a good point about visiting these fly-over states to campaign, but that is all stemmed from another problem, the worst problem with the human species: advertising, even the shittiest kind, actually works.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 7:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 9:51 PM xongsmith has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2235
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 32 of 118 (903662)
12-14-2022 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
12-14-2022 6:19 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
According to Alexa, the CCP has 96 million members. How is it fair that a billion point four Chinese bow down to 96 million CCP members?
Phat you slack jawed yokel, fairness is not a common aspect of communist dictatorships. No one is advocating for a one party state.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 6:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 1:44 AM DrJones* has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7508
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 33 of 118 (903663)
12-14-2022 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by xongsmith
12-14-2022 8:23 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
The majority within those two voting blocks along the coasts determines the election.

But if it was by Population, your vote in California would count just as much as your vote in South Dakota.
I was talking about 'by population', I think? The two coasts of the United States, within 100 miles of each coast, if I have my numbers right, is where a super majority of people (voters) live.
If the majority of those voters go for Sam then Sam will be president regardless of any votes in South Dakota. North Dakotans, South Dakotans and everyone south to the Mexico border have no say, no voice, in the presidential vote. The voters on the coasts are numerous enough to control the outcome of a popular vote.
For appearances sake all votes cast are indeed to be counted across the country and a winner declared on the national totals and no one would care what regions the votes came from. But when a politician goes to ply his trade and do his influence pork barrel thing looking for votes, he can save a lot of money and time schmoozing the coastlines without any concerns for the interior.
Maine (I think) divides their 5 electors by popular vote
I may have this wrong but I thought the Maine-Nebraska model of Electoral College was two at large votes to the state-wide winner then the remaining EC votes are apportioned to the winner of each congressional district. That makes sense when your district votes blue to give the 1 EC vote that represents that congressional district to the blue guy even, or especially, when in a red state.
... advertising, even the shittiest kind, actually works.
I am constantly surprised at how effective negative political ads can be. I'm old enough to remember seeing the first and only airing of the Daisy Spot. I ran upstairs to ask my dad if he had seen it. He was upset, flabbergasted and POd to the max. He was a Goldwater fan. I don't remember his words just that he was not a happy camper. I was just a tweenager and I felt the raw power. Yeah, political ads can be very effective indeed.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by xongsmith, posted 12-14-2022 8:23 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 1:10 AM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 38 by xongsmith, posted 12-15-2022 2:03 AM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 12-15-2022 11:14 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 34 of 118 (903667)
12-15-2022 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 9:51 PM


The Daisy Spot
Daisy Spot Commercial
Wow. People don't fear nuclear war or nuclear weapons like they used to. And it was fear that helped preserve the peace. Nowadays, nobody is scared of anybody else. Which is fine as long as the henhouse has no disguised wolves in its midst.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 9:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2022 2:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 35 of 118 (903670)
12-15-2022 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by DrJones*
12-14-2022 8:35 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Dr.Jones* writes:
No one is advocating for a one party state.
No one?
All I can do is judge them by what they say. (just as they do me)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by DrJones*, posted 12-14-2022 8:35 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2022 2:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 39 by xongsmith, posted 12-15-2022 2:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 51 by DrJones*, posted 12-15-2022 7:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5563
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 36 of 118 (903672)
12-15-2022 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
12-15-2022 1:10 AM


Re: The Daisy Spot
Which is fine as long as the henhouse has no disguised wolves in its midst.
You mean fox. "The fox is in the henhouse."
Wolves are too big to fit in a henhouse. That's why they infiltrate the herds of sheep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 1:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5563
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(5)
Message 37 of 118 (903673)
12-15-2022 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
12-15-2022 1:44 AM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
OK fine. The GQP is advocating for a one party state. Their party regardless of how much they have to rig the elections.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 1:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 38 of 118 (903674)
12-15-2022 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 9:51 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
I was talking about 'by population', I think? The two coasts of the United States, within 100 miles of each coast, if I have my numbers right, is where a super majority of people (voters) live.
Right. But I was talking about all the voters in solid Blue (or even solid Red states like my Dem friends in Arkansas) who also feel like it's a waste of time to vote. Probably more of them than in all the fly-over states, like South Dakota or Montana, all told. I am sure there are more, totalled on the coasts, that just don't vote because they always lose. For them, switching to a population vote makes their vote count just as much as a vote anywhere, so they would go vote. Right now they feel disenfranchised.
Originally, to vote you had to be a male white owner of LAND. these fly-over states are sort of the last bastions of LAND power left.
Your plan might be feasible, whereas the population plan might be too large a change to pass congress, so yay! let's go!
on the other front we only need 75 more electoral combination of states to join in on the plan to cast all electoral votes to the general population winner. this would effectively make it the population winner.
but this gives me a bad feeling: if a state votes overwhelmingly against the country-wide winner and then the state gives all it's EC votes to the country-wide winner. A sort of big Fuck You to their own citizens.
So just get rid of the EC, go to population, explain that to all of your relatives in California who could then vote with their South Dakota relatives for their Republicans and it will count. Make it a team effort. If they still lose, well, have the Republican Party leaders actually do something for them instead of blocking my Progressive Democrats by any way they can.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 9:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 10:25 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 39 of 118 (903675)
12-15-2022 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
12-15-2022 1:44 AM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Phat writes:
All I can do is judge them by what they say.
NO. You judge them by what they DO.
Like when the Republican-dominated state legislatures close polling sites and make the poor and POC have to drive 50-70 miles to vote, while the white upper class neighborhoods vote only a couple of blocks away.
Like when the Republicans vote unanimously NO to spending more money for veterans, or to investigate price gouging at the gas pump. This isn't your father's "Left Wing of the same bird as the Right Wing" joke any more. The GOP wants 90% or more of the country to be minimum wage slaves to their 1% super rich buddies in the Fossil Fuel Industry, in the Big Pharma Phuckers, yunno, as George Carlin put it, it's a rich club and _You_ aint in it.
And before you cry "the Dems take money from them too!", well, you would rather have them bring a knife to a gunfight?
Arent you a Union man? The Repugnants HATE Unions and want to end them all. Reagan dismantled the Flight Controller Union nearly on his Day One.
You judge them by what they DO.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 1:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 40 of 118 (903686)
12-15-2022 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by xongsmith
12-15-2022 2:03 AM


Another Rabbit Trail: What are Populists?
xongsmith writes:
Originally, to vote you had to be a male white owner of LAND. these fly-over states are sort of the last bastions of LAND power left.
OK that explains my rancher. But what do we expect him to do? He best not bet the ranch! Gambling is for suckers. Should we expect him to grovel at the feet of the majority? He is doing us a favor by raising livestock. Or would you prefer the state do that?
*Phat drags out Mr.Dictionary, another dusty old book*
Oxford Languages writes:
a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
"the question is whether he will tone down his fiery populism now that he has joined the political establishment"
support for populist politicians or policies.
"the government came to power on a wave of populism"
the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people.
"art museums did not gain bigger audiences through a new populism"
I always assumed that populists were uneducated blue collar workers, many of whom owned a small business. Trump called them something to the effect of "his forgotten people" who he promised would never be forgotten again.
IIRC, he appealed to them for some unknown reason...perhaps because he was a walking advertisement against "elitism". So now my next task in today's lesson is to look up elitism. But first...
Populism In The United States
Wikipedia:
A division of American populism into two strains has been suggested: one being an economic form of populism opposed to financial elites, and the other being a cultural populism opposed to intellectual elitism. The economic strain is claimed to have a longer history, including the likes of Andrew Jackson and William Jennings Bryan, while cultural populism is recognized as starting in the 1960s with George Wallace. However, the modern-day rise of populism on both sides of the political spectrum has been said to have stemmed from voter apathy with the current governmental system and those running it, and, subsequently, populist politics are said to play a constitutive role in political realignments, in which moral boundaries between groups are redrawn and categories of "us" and "them" emerge.
Populism has risen in recent years; however, the focus is no longer on the general population protesting against the masses, which was historically the case with populism, but rather on more political polarization, whereby a simple majority is the goal of politicians and thus leads to the "tyranny of the majority" in which they do not focus on appeasing opposing politics but reinforcing their own base.

Im starting to understand.
My conservative friend, (he loves Ben Shapiro) claims that "we" (see? He uses that word too! )need to kick the elitists out of political office.
Now...
What Are Elitists
Elitism
quote:
Elitism is the belief or notion that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people perceived as having an intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, power, notability, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
Comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by xongsmith, posted 12-15-2022 2:03 AM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 12-15-2022 12:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9323
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 41 of 118 (903693)
12-15-2022 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 7:15 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
To address the imbalance in voting strength the smaller states required both the Senate membership and the electoral college. Else, no deal.
The issue was the Southern states worrying that the Northern states would outlaw slavery.
There is also a problem in just ditching the EC. Without the dynamics of the EC, meaning you are going by popular vote alone, politicians have no reason to go to Michigan, or Texas or anywhere outside the voting blocks of the two narrow strips along the coasts.
Why wouldn't they go to wherever the voters are? A Democratic vote picked up in deep red Utah would count as much as a vote anywhere else.
Unless you live on the coast ... no it won't ... and it doesn't matter if you vote Dem or Rep, it won't count.
It would count a lot more than it does now as a Democratic voter in a deep red state. Right now, it counts for bupkus. If there were a popular vote, my vote would count just as much as someone voting in NY or LA.
Because democracy must always be tempered with minority protections.
Voting Republican is a not a minority.
Without something like the EC, if going strictly by popular vote, then my sister's vote in New York City will help determine the election while your vote in Dallas does not even need to be registered as it will have no effect on the outcome.
That's false. Those votes count the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 7:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2022 6:01 PM Taq has replied
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9323
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 42 of 118 (903695)
12-15-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 9:51 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
I was talking about 'by population', I think? The two coasts of the United States, within 100 miles of each coast, if I have my numbers right, is where a super majority of people (voters) live.

If the majority of those voters go for Sam then Sam will be president regardless of any votes in South Dakota. North Dakotans, South Dakotans and everyone south to the Mexico border have no say, no voice, in the presidential vote.
They have the same voice as each of those people along the coast.
For appearances sake all votes cast are indeed to be counted across the country and a winner declared on the national totals and no one would care what regions the votes came from. But when a politician goes to ply his trade and do his influence pork barrel thing looking for votes, he can save a lot of money and time schmoozing the coastlines without any concerns for the interior.
Or you can schmooze both urban and rural areas and win an election.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 9:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 43 of 118 (903702)
12-15-2022 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:08 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
Phat writes:
If I am a rancher in Wyoming, for example, why must I bow to the demands of a bunch of elitist whiners in Berkley who think that selling steak is cruel to animals...
I, for one, think we should be allowed to eat vegetarians - but that's only one vote and the vegetarians get to vote too. And even if we democratically decide to eat vegetarians, there is still a moral argument that vegetarians are human.
Phat writes:
So does the electoral college have anything to do with the old debate regarding whether the US is a Republic or a Democracy?
There's no debate.
Faith tried to tell me once that the US is a "republic", not a "democracy". I pointed out to her that it is a democratic republic.
Both of you make the same mistake, confusing the party names with the general terms.
When I first took an interest in politics, I called our two main parties the "tight-fisted Liberals" and the "spendthrift Conservatives".
Typically, the party in power spends money like water and the opposition questions every penny.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:08 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by xongsmith, posted 12-15-2022 11:16 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 44 of 118 (903703)
12-15-2022 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:30 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Phat writes:
voting should not be steamrolled based on emotional ideology.
But you do not get to dictate how people decide how to vote. If somebody votes Republican because they like red ties, that's none of your business. If I vote emotionally because I don't like to watch homeless people die. that's none of your business. Most of us here think your voting decisions are stupid but that's none of our business. Stupid people get to vote too.
Phat writes:
That is unfair.
You may not have heard the news: Life is not fair.
Phat writes:
Unless you propose that the government take his ranch and divvy it up to a bunch of homeless people at taxpayer expense.
Nobody is suggesting that. All anybody would ask is that he BE a taxpayer.
Phat writes:
A strong Democracy (or Republic, take your pick) is not run by the CCP nor should it ever be.
China IS a republic, by the way.
And you don't get to decide whom it "should" be run by.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 45 of 118 (903704)
12-15-2022 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:40 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
Phat writes:
Don't you see how authoritarian that sounds?
It's not authoritarian. Please learn what that word means before you use it again.
It's a social contract.
Phat writes:
Hypothetically, just because 5 friends always get together and vote and 4 of them vote for the same thing does not mean that the fifth guy always has to turn the other cheek.
It really does.
The best thing about our Western democracies is the fact that when our party doesn't win, we don't go up in the hills with our rifles and start a revolution. That happens in far too many places (and the US sometimes seems close).
So yes, we do turn the other cheek and wait for the next election to have our say again.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:40 PM Phat has not replied

  
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