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Author Topic:   Popular Vote vs Electoral College
AZPaul3
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Posts: 7476
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 16 of 118 (903643)
12-14-2022 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:08 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
AZ Paul sees the wisdom of the electoral college.
Which does not agree with anything you just said.
Why is your WY rancher bitchin' about local social mores in Berkley? He's not affected.
As for taxes, you will pay what your government, the one you had a voice in electing, tells you to pay. That is your civic obligation to society.
You may not see the need for a new stoplight at that intersection but if the government says one is needed then you will pay for it. You had your say when you elected the government.
If your government, the one you elected whether you voted for each member or not, says you pay higher taxes just so a bunch of homeless people can get food, then you pay. That is your duty to the society of which you are a member.
I don't see where any of your anti-government, anti-people, bullshit is related to the subject you started.
WTF does this have to do with the electoral college?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 17 of 118 (903644)
12-14-2022 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
12-14-2022 5:28 PM


The Trump Factor. A Bull In A China Shop
Taq writes:
We have just witnessed a political party that openly discussed throwing democracy away. The leader of the Republican Party suggested that we throw the constitution out so he could be named president. Nowhere do we see Democrats behaving like this. There is no comparison here.
I agree. Trump ruined a lot of things. Some argue, however, that he kept us from sliding down the slope closer to China.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 12-14-2022 5:28 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 5:43 PM Phat has replied
 Message 23 by Taq, posted 12-14-2022 5:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 18 of 118 (903645)
12-14-2022 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 5:30 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
Taq writes:
As for taxes, you will pay what your government, the one you had a voice in electing, tells you to pay. That is your civic obligation to society.

You may not see the need for a new stoplight at that intersection but if the government says one is needed then you will pay for it. You had your say when you elected the government.
Don't you see how authoritarian that sounds?
My ranch is every bit as important to me and the welfare of my workers as Democracy is to the homeless folks who need a place to squat. Hypothetically, just because 5 friends always get together and vote and 4 of them vote for the same thing does not mean that the fifth guy always has to turn the other cheek.
I don't see where any of your anti-government, anti-people, bullshit is related to the subject you started.

WTF does this have to do with the electoral college?
I think it has more to do with congressional districts and the House of Representatives than it does to the electoral college. Right now, anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 5:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 5:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 12-14-2022 5:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 12-15-2022 12:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7476
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 19 of 118 (903646)
12-14-2022 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:34 PM


Re: The Trump Factor. A Bull In A China Shop
... he kept us from sliding down the slope closer to China.
What? The? Fuck?
What kind of conspiratorial sicko makes up this shit? WTF does that even mean? I don't think you know what you just said.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 6:08 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 20 of 118 (903647)
12-14-2022 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 4:14 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
A feature of the electoral college is that, without it, the smaller states have no way to have their voices heard in the republic. The smaller less populated states would see their state and local interests lost to the larger populations and the interests of the larger states. Democracy is fine and all but being able to participate is even better.
That's taken care of in the Senate.
A feature of the electoral college is that, without it, the smaller states have no way to have their voices heard in the republic. The smaller less populated states would see their state and local interests lost to the larger populations and the interests of the larger states. Democracy is fine and all but being able to participate is even better.
That's not what I see. Presidential candidates are much more likely to go to Michigan than they are California or Texas. What matters is being a swing state. That's where you get the attention.
If its a national race then every vote counts the same, so converting a vote anywhere is useful. I live in a small deep red state, so no one campaigns in my state. Republicans count it as a sure win, and Democrats see no reason to even try to get any votes. If it were a popular vote then they very well may campaign here because my vote for a Democrat would actually matter.
Deciding by popular vote and its appeal to democracy sounds wonderful but, today, in this political setup, it would lead to a situation where 3/4 of the land mass of this nation, and its lesser population, is effectively disenfranchised from the vote.
I don't see why having more dirt around you entitles you to more voting power.
The way to solve it is easy. Award electoral votes based on the popular vote. To mandate that at the federal level will take a constitutional amendment. That only leaves a voluntary effort on the parts of the various state legislatures.
From what I have seen, that is getting closer to happening.
"The National Popular Vote bill has been enacted by 16 jurisdictions possessing 195 electoral votes, including 4 small states (DE, HI, RI, VT), 8 medium-sized states (CO, CT, MD, MA, NJ, NM, OR, WA), 3 big states (CA, IL, NY), and the District of Columbia. The bill will take effect when enacted by states with 75 more electoral votes. "
Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote | National Popular Vote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 4:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 7:15 PM Taq has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7476
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 21 of 118 (903648)
12-14-2022 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:40 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
Don't you see how authoritarian that sounds?
Do I care? When you participate in a society governed by openly elected citizens your obligation is to speak, vote, then pay up.
My ranch is every bit as important to me and the welfare of my workers as Democracy is to the homeless folks who need a place to squat.
No one is threatening your ranch. Why do you threaten the homeless you can't even see?
Hypothetically, just because 5 friends always get together and vote and 4 of them vote for the same thing does not mean that the fifth guy always has to turn the other cheek.
Hypothetically, this makes no damn sense. 5 friends deciding on dinner is not a government and cannot be expected to act like a government. It means nothing to this theme.
I think it has more to do with congressional districts and the House of Representatives than it does to the electoral college. Right now, anyway.
Subject Leviosa!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 22 of 118 (903649)
12-14-2022 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:40 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
Phat writes:
Don't you see how authoritarian that sounds?
No, I don't. Nearly every country has taxes. One of the few exceptions I can think of is Monaco.
The basic function of a country is to collect taxes in one way or another.
My ranch is every bit as important to me and the welfare of my workers as Democracy is to the homeless folks who need a place to squat. Hypothetically, just because 5 friends always get together and vote and 4 of them vote for the same thing does not mean that the fifth guy always has to turn the other cheek.
So you are against the concept of democracy. Got it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 23 of 118 (903650)
12-14-2022 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:34 PM


Re: The Trump Factor. A Bull In A China Shop
Phat writes:
Trump ruined a lot of things. Some argue, however, that he kept us from sliding down the slope closer to China.
What in the world are you talking about???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 24 of 118 (903651)
12-14-2022 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:30 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Phat writes:
Because population centers by nature have different interests than farms and ranches. voting should not be steamrolled based on emotional ideology.
So millions of people in cities should bow down to the wishes of a few thousand farmers? How is that fair?
And why wouldn't city folk support farmers?
Unless you propose that the government take his ranch and divvy it up to a bunch of homeless people at taxpayer expense.
No one is proposing that. Where are you pulling this from? No Democrat is calling for taking peoples' land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 6:19 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 25 of 118 (903653)
12-14-2022 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 5:43 PM


A Brief Rabbit Trail:Gold and Political Ideology
AZ writes:
What kind of conspiratorial sicko makes up this shit?
And I'm just getting warmed up!
Back to our old friend, Gold. That useless rock.
Never mind that FDR took our gold. Gerald Ford gave it back.
Nixon defended the dollar against "the speculators". The US Dollar in essence became fools gold. Except that it can be inflated. Deflated. Created out of nothing. And the naive among us think that this sort of behavior is the new monetary theory!
Ask Percy what the official value of the Gold held by the Federal Reserve (or Fort Knox, I forget) is valued at.(Hint: Close to $35.00 an ounce!!!)
I found out a fact at the Union meeting last night. The speaker stated that Walmart does not even pay for the items they have in their stores, but only makes money once the items are sold. I will have to fact-check that, but I trust the speaker. (and where does Walmart get most of its stuff? *cough* China! *cough*
So add up these stats. China buys tons of T-Bills and essentially loans us money by buying our debt. They do this because they know that we are their biggest consumer. Even if they *knew* that the dollar was close to being worth 5 cents for every dollar FDR had. Let's do the math.
2022 dollar = roughly 5 cents of the 1933 dollar. Thus, 1933 dollar=20x.
1933 Gold ounce=$35.00 (x 20) = $700.00 an ounce.
Does anyone see the light yet?
Add to that the fact that China and Russia are buying tons and tons of gold to back their central banks.
Conservatives may be selfish heartless bastards, but they know the value of a dollar.
Liberals seem to think that humans determine the value of the dollar and that if only we squeezed our eyes shut real tight and wished upon a star, there would be enough money for everybody!
Until that trust is violated. It has happened before. It will happen again.
And did anybody hear the rumors that future agreements between the Saudis, Russia and China will no longer price oil and natural gas in dollars? The commodities (like that gold rock) are solid and will be priced in Rubles, Renubi, and other alternate currencies soon to be fully backed by gold. Nixon never intended for the dollar to remain separated from gold, (I don't think). It's just that the Democrats got ahold of it and wanted it to be perpetually hypothetical. The Republicans think in concrete absolute value terms. The Dems think in hypothetical "print what you need to feed" terms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 5:43 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 12-14-2022 6:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 12-14-2022 6:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 26 of 118 (903655)
12-14-2022 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-14-2022 6:08 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail:Gold and Political Ideology
Phat writes:
Conservatives may be selfish heartless bastards, but they know the value of a dollar.
Liberals seem to think that humans determine the value of the dollar and that if only we squeezed our eyes shut real tight and wished upon a star, there would be enough money for everybody!
What does this have to do with Popular v. Electoral College?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 6:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 27 of 118 (903656)
12-14-2022 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taq
12-14-2022 6:02 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Taq writes:
So millions of people in cities should bow down to the wishes of a few thousand farmers? How is that fair?
According to Alexa, the CCP has 96 million members. How is it fair that a billion point four Chinese bow down to 96 million CCP members?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 12-14-2022 6:02 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 12-14-2022 6:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 32 by DrJones*, posted 12-14-2022 8:35 PM Phat has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 28 of 118 (903657)
12-14-2022 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
12-14-2022 6:19 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Phat writes:
According to Alexa, the CCP has 96 million members. How is it fair that a billion point four Chinese bow down to 96 million CCP members?
We are talking about elections in the US, not China.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 6:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 29 of 118 (903658)
12-14-2022 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-14-2022 6:08 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail:Gold and Political Ideology
You sir are an idiot. Your topic don't you think you should stay on topic

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 6:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7476
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 30 of 118 (903659)
12-14-2022 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taq
12-14-2022 5:55 PM


Re: Proportional EC
That's taken care of in the Senate.
The founders didn't think so. To address the imbalance in voting strength the smaller states required both the Senate membership and the electoral college. Else, no deal.
That's not what I see. Presidential candidates are much more likely to go to Michigan than they are California or Texas. What matters is being a swing state. That's where you get the attention.
Because we have an electoral college now, so, yes, now, we see national political focus across the changing list of "swing" states. That's a good thing. We should keep that. But winner-take-all EC votes in a state must go.
There is also a problem in just ditching the EC. Without the dynamics of the EC, meaning you are going by popular vote alone, politicians have no reason to go to Michigan, or Texas or anywhere outside the voting blocks of the two narrow strips along the coasts. The majority within those two voting blocks along the coasts determines the election. The votes from no other regions of the country matter one bit. The majority vote in those 2 small strips of our east and west coast IS the majority vote of the nation.
If it were a popular vote then they very well may campaign here because my vote for a Democrat would actually matter.
Unless you live on the coast ... no it won't ... and it doesn't matter if you vote Dem or Rep, it won't count. The national consensus would be determined on the coasts, not across the nation.
I don't see why having more dirt around you entitles you to more voting power.
Because democracy must always be tempered with minority protections. We learned that from Athens. The vote is no different. Democracy is wonderful but meaningful participation is even better. If compromises need be made to vote weight to protect the voice of the minority then society seems better off so says history.
Without something like the EC, if going strictly by popular vote, then my sister's vote in New York City will help determine the election while your vote in Dallas does not even need to be registered as it will have no effect on the outcome.
That may be democratic majority rule but it is not, imho, viable democracy.
Re: National Popular Vote
From what I have seen, that is getting closer to happening.
Oh, I sure hope so. All this discussion goes away and democracy, representative democracy, is preserved.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Taq, posted 12-14-2022 5:55 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by xongsmith, posted 12-14-2022 8:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 41 by Taq, posted 12-15-2022 11:08 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 54 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 2:54 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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