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Author Topic:   Popular Vote vs Electoral College
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 76 of 118 (903912)
12-18-2022 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by nwr
12-18-2022 11:42 AM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
In China, there are 1.4 billion people and only one party. Yet they are seemingly not idiots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 12-18-2022 11:42 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by nwr, posted 12-18-2022 2:19 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 77 of 118 (903913)
12-18-2022 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by xongsmith
12-18-2022 12:10 AM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
What frightens me is the idea that Biden was the best *we* could come up with. Simply being "better than Trump" is hardly enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by xongsmith, posted 12-18-2022 12:10 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2022 12:41 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 79 by xongsmith, posted 12-18-2022 1:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 78 of 118 (903916)
12-18-2022 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-18-2022 12:13 PM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
But you have not been able to express any rationale argument of a problem with Biden.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 12:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 79 of 118 (903919)
12-18-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-18-2022 12:13 PM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
Phat argues:
Simply being "better than Trump" is hardly enough.
Agreed. But Biden has been nothing short of spectacular.
Remember he has to deal with every one in Congress on both sides of the aisle.
The Democrats are currently providing food and shelter and comfort to ex-GOP people in Congress. You've no doubt heard of the problem of leading them being compared to herding cats? Once the fascist GOP is deservedly destroyed and goes the way of the Whig party, then all the myriad components hiding in the true patriot Democrats can finally break up into the 3 or 4 sub-parties and your nightmare of "one party rule" is over.
I will most likely join the Progressive AOC wing or the Warren wing. Or maybe I'll join the Bernie wing. Some will form and join an old-fashioned conservative Corporate wing and welcome, if not Mitch McConnell, his allies back into their fold. Liz Cheney will find a home there. The Moderates, Left and Right, will probably continue to accept huge donations from the corporate CEOs, who are actually the ones writing the legislation that is then passed, while these moderates never commit to anything.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 12:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-19-2022 9:55 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6244
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 80 of 118 (903927)
12-18-2022 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
12-18-2022 12:11 PM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
In China, there are 1.4 billion people and only one party. Yet they are seemingly not idiots.
I was talking about USA, not about China, though they probably have their share of idiots.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 12:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3773
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 81 of 118 (903928)
12-18-2022 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
12-18-2022 11:17 AM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
I'm here to challenge that.
When does that start?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 11:17 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 82 of 118 (903940)
12-19-2022 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by xongsmith
12-18-2022 1:32 PM


Re: The USA is a very Scary country
Xongsmith writes:
Biden has been nothing short of spectacular.
Remember he has to deal with everyone in Congress on both sides of the aisle.

The Democrats are providing food, shelter, and comfort to ex-GOP people in Congress. You've no doubt heard of the problem of leading them being compared to herding cats. Once the fascist GOP is deservedly destroyed and goes the way of the Whig party, all the myriad components hiding in the true patriot Democrats can finally break up into the 3 or 4 sub-parties and your nightmare of "one-party rule" is over.

I will most likely join the Progressive AOC wing or the Warren wing. Or maybe I'll join the Bernie wing. Some will form and join an old-fashioned conservative Corporate wing and welcome, if not Mitch McConnell, his allies back into their fold. Liz Cheney will find a home there. The Moderates, Left and Right, will probably continue to accept huge donations from the corporate CEOs, who are actually the ones writing the legislation that is then passed, while these moderates never commit to anything.
Nate, I must confess that I am far from an expert in political thought and ideology. I have always considered myself a moderate (middle of the road) guy who looks at what each party has to offer me, much as a shopper at my grocery store picks items that agree with their personal tastes and preference. ( Now for a brief rabbit trail: My autobiography. )
I grew up in a home with a Democrat Mom and a Republican Dad. She liked Humprey and He liked Nixon. (circa 1968, I think? I must have been 9 years old when Nixon defeated Humprey.) In High School, my best friend Chris also had a very Republican Father. They owned a Greek Restaurant.
My Father was a General Contractor (Home builder) and dabbled in stocks. We were not rich, though I once figured out that by today's standards (adjusted for inflation) my Dad would have earned $100,000.00 a year. Heck, back then I thought we were rich! My first real job in life was as a Dishwasher at an old German restaurant, the Alpine Village Inn. I earned $2.75 an hour while most of my less ambitious co-workers earned $2.00. Our Boss, Mick, once said that if a union tried to get into the restaurant he would damn well shut the doors! My Dad, also self-employed, never cared much for unionized carpenters, either.
As a very young kid, I would go out and jump on my trampoline, imagining myself as the richest man in the world. In my dream, I had no wife or friends...for I was my own friend. I lived a dream life in a house that my Daddy built for $25,000.00 in 1960. I walked to elementary school. The houses in that same neighborhood today are million-dollar homes. Had my Dad lived, who knows what he would have done or believed?
Dad was a self-made man. He had no college. He learned how to build houses by being taught by his brother, my Uncle (shortly after the war. WW II) He loved me to death, (in fact I was a spoiled brat, as my parents always fondly said) They both grew up during the Great Depression. My Mom proudly mentioned Eleanor Roosevelt as her idol and inspiration. As for my Dad? He was proud to have fought for America, "beating them Japs" and in essence, getting the job done. (His words) He was an affectionate man of few words. He fancied himself a John Wayne, but he had the inner heart of Alan Alda (conservative version)
Mom was "the most frugal thing you've ever seen"(her words) In another era, Dad would have likely voted for Trump over Hillary. I voted for Hillary because my sister adored her.
They sent me to private school from grades 7 through 10. I finished out my education at a public school (I'm guessing that the inflation of the Viet Nam war era made it very expensive to send me to private school forever.)
Let me summarize
  • My friend's Dad, Galanis the Greek, started out Conservative He loved Reagan. Later, he switched sides and disliked Reagan for some reason. Jeanette, his daughter, later grew up to become a member of Mr.Bidens administration. Chris is now far more liberal than he is conservative. I, on the other hand, persist in remaining conservative-leaning. I never liked Trump, though had my Dad been alive he would likely have voted for him.
  • Its odd that you see the Republicans as fascists.
    Conservative radio host Glen Beck has a book out called The Great Reset: Joe Biden and the Rise of Twenty-First-Century Fascism. So my question is why the confusion? One side claims that the far-right are fascists. The other side (Beck and others) claims that the Democrats are being ideologically swayed by the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) and China.
    It all adds up. Ray Dalio, another self-made man, observes a new world order as China ascends and the good ole USA descends.
    Let's continue my rabbit trail in the Book Nook. Message 4

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 79 by xongsmith, posted 12-18-2022 1:32 PM xongsmith has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 86 by Theodoric, posted 12-19-2022 12:45 PM Phat has replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9323
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 3.4


    (1)
    Message 83 of 118 (903959)
    12-19-2022 12:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by AZPaul3
    12-16-2022 12:31 PM


    Re: Proportional EC
    AZPaul3 writes:
    Why do you continue to argue the effects of a popular vote using electoral college maps? This map does not show the popular vote.
    It does show that Republicans were winning on the coasts at one point.
    The point is that in a popular vote for president the states don't matter. Population density will determine where the influence, the schmoozing, the pork barrel should be spent. In this country that is on the coasts were the vast majority of the voters, of all flavors and persuasions, reside. Forget states. States mean nothing in a popular vote.
    If the candidates schmooze equally in high density areas then they will split the vote in those areas.
    My point for this discussion is that an electoral college type of setup forces, as we see today, presidential candidates to spend more political attention interior to the coasts.
    That's not true. It makes them spend time in swing states which can be anywhere on the map.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 12:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 85 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2022 12:33 PM Taq has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20915
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 84 of 118 (903962)
    12-19-2022 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
    12-18-2022 11:17 AM


    Re: The USA is a very Scary country
    Phat writes:
    I would be more scared of a one-party government.
    A two-party-system isn't much better. It fosters too much polarization.
    We currently have five parties and a couple of independents in the House of Commons. Even when the Liberals don't have a majority, the minor parties tend to side with them, philosophy-wise, so the Conservatives have little chance unless they can achieve a majority. Which led somebody to quip that we have a one-and-a-half party system: The Liberals are the more-ore-less permanent government but once every twenty years or so we keep them honest by electing the Conservatives for a term or two.
    I would stack up our government and our system against yours any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by Phat, posted 12-18-2022 11:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 7508
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 85 of 118 (903963)
    12-19-2022 12:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 83 by Taq
    12-19-2022 12:12 PM


    Re: Proportional EC
    If the candidates schmooze equally in high density areas then they will split the vote in those areas.
    And what do think that will lead to? The 2 coastal areas ARE the MAJOR voting population of the nation. Of course there is a "split". Some red some blue. Some undecided thus the schmoozing of those voters.
    Remember we're talking about a popular vote for president. States don't matter.
    You have $1000 to schmooze with. Are you going to spend that chasing 15 votes in Manhattan KS or 10,000 in Manhattan, NY?
    It makes them spend time in swing states which can be anywhere on the map.
    Exactly. Look at swing states and battleground states from past elections. Lots of interior states (Arizona, Michigan, Illinois). That's because the state's electoral votes are the prize. There are no battleground states in a popular vote scheme.
    When the popular vote is the prize there is no need to chase sparse populations in less populated areas. You chase the major populations on the coasts where the majority of votes are.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 83 by Taq, posted 12-19-2022 12:12 PM Taq has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 89 by xongsmith, posted 12-19-2022 5:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 8140
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 86 of 118 (903965)
    12-19-2022 12:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
    12-19-2022 9:55 AM


    Re: The USA is a very Scary country
    Conservative radio host Glen Beck has a book out called The Great Reset: Joe Biden and the Rise of Twenty-First-Century Fascism. So my question is why the confusion? One side claims that the far-right are fascists. The other side (Beck and others) claims that the Democrats are being ideologically swayed by the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) and China.
    One side uses evidence, not propaganda.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-19-2022 9:55 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-19-2022 3:51 PM Theodoric has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 17111
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 87 of 118 (903970)
    12-19-2022 3:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 86 by Theodoric
    12-19-2022 12:45 PM


    Re: The USA is a very Scary country
    Are you implying that there is in fact a two-party system and that the conservative side is full of propaganda? I hope you say yes because it will be a noble exercise to pin your ears back, O Donkey.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 86 by Theodoric, posted 12-19-2022 12:45 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 12-19-2022 4:00 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 115 by Theodoric, posted 12-21-2022 3:55 PM Phat has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 8140
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 88 of 118 (903971)
    12-19-2022 4:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
    12-19-2022 3:51 PM


    Re: The USA is a very Scary country
    Yes we are a two party system and yes the GQP uses extensive propaganda.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by Phat, posted 12-19-2022 3:51 PM Phat has not replied

      
    xongsmith
    Member
    Posts: 2402
    From: massachusetts US
    Joined: 01-01-2009
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 89 of 118 (903974)
    12-19-2022 5:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 85 by AZPaul3
    12-19-2022 12:33 PM


    Re: Proportional EC
    AZPaul3 writes:
    You have $1000 to schmooze with. Are you going to spend that chasing 15 votes in Manhattan KS or 10,000 in Manhattan, NY?
    In my scenario you get arrested for campaigning. Schmoozing is illegal.
    The League of Women Voters posts weekly voting records and positions on the issues for everyone to see.
    It makes them spend time in swing states which can be anywhere on the map.
    Exactly. Look at swing states and battleground states from past elections. Lots of interior states (Arizona, Michigan, Illinois). That's because the state's electoral votes are the prize. There are no battleground states in a popular vote scheme.
    But in a proportional EC system, which ones are swing states? Do you schmooze the 3 elector state of Wyoming or the 55 elector state of California? A bit of schmoozing in California could sway several more multiples of proportional EC votes than the what the sparse states have to offer. Remember, there is no Winner-Take-All.
    The solution is for the sparse state families to team up with the now important big state families, family by family. There is no penalty for where you live any more. And get rid of all the schmoozing by making campaigning illegal. Schmoozing is by definition dishonest.

    "I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
    Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
    Enjoy every sandwich!

    - xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 85 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2022 12:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 90 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2022 6:35 PM xongsmith has replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 7508
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 90 of 118 (903975)
    12-19-2022 6:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 89 by xongsmith
    12-19-2022 5:48 PM


    Re: Proportional EC
    Do you schmooze the 3 elector state of Wyoming or the 55 elector state of California?
    In today's world then, as usual, it depends on whether California is in play or is it well set. If prospects and polls are good for a party then it's not a battleground state. So who has the largest electoral vote that's within 3% differential? That is a battleground state, like Illinois or Michigan.
    Schmoozing is by definition dishonest.
    So choose a different word. No you cannot outlaw a candidate from giving a speech or hosting a community talk or a neighborhood bbq. This is still America.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 89 by xongsmith, posted 12-19-2022 5:48 PM xongsmith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 91 by xongsmith, posted 12-19-2022 11:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied
     Message 93 by ringo, posted 12-20-2022 10:58 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
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