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Author
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Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 451 of 1086 (868199)
12-08-2019 3:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 450 by ringo
12-08-2019 1:53 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
ringo writes: How can you claim the scripture is "alive" to you when you reject what it says? I have only rejected assertions made by you and jar which dont line up with how the other 500+ Christians I know to interpret it or share what it says. It helps to know the author of a book before trying to understand what it says. You may argue that it's not necessary to know the author, messenger, mediator, or main character in a plot---that a book explains itself. I disagree in this case. The very first time I read the story of the snake and Eve, I understood basically what it said. Subsequent discussions confirmed and honed my understanding. Of all of the people whom I have discussed the book with, none of them except you and jar have suggested any other meaning to be gleaned. Now, who am I to believe? First, I trust my intuition. Next, I ask others. Granted it usually ends up as confirmation bias since the vast majority of Christians I know have similar interpretations. Then we have you and jar. You, in particular, stubbornly stand on the argument that the books say what they say period. Nobody else has told me this. And I have reason to question it and doubt it. Oh and one more thing. We are saved from God's judgment but not from God Himself. We become in communion with God...which is an ongoing process. jar always asks how the heck a relationship or communion with God is even possible. CS Lewis attempts to explain it: Mere Christianity writes: But supposing God became a mansuppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one personthen that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies, and He cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all. I have heard some people complain that if Jesus was God as well as man, then His sufferings and death lose all value in their eyes, "because it must have been so easy for him." Others may (very rightly) rebuke the ingratitude and ungraciousness of this objection; what staggers me is the misunderstanding it betrays. In one sense, of course, those who make it are right. They have even understated their own case. The perfect submission, the perfect suffering, the perfect death were not only easier to Jesus because He was God, but were possible only because He was God. But surely that is a very odd reason for not accepting them? The teacher is able to form the letters for the child because the teacher is grown-up and knows how to write. That, of course, makes it easier for the teacher, and only because it is easier for him can he help the child. If it rejected him because "it's easy for grown-ups" and waited to learn writing from another child who could not write itself (and so had no "unfair" advantage), it would not get on very quickly. If I am drowning in a rapid river, a man who still has one foot on the bank may give me a hand which saves my life. Ought I to shout back (between my gasps) "No, it's not fair! You have an advantage! You're keeping one foot on the bank"? That advantagecall it "unfair" if you likeis the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself? What problems do you have with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement? Oh, and jar: You claim that I make up the God whom I want. But it seems that you do also. You can't accept the idea of substitutionary atonement because you prefer personal responsibility and the honor system.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 450 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:53 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 452 by PaulK, posted 12-08-2019 4:08 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 4:12 PM | | Phat has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.3
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Message 452 of 1086 (868202)
12-08-2019 4:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
12-08-2019 3:35 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
quote:
The very first time I read the story of the snake and Eve, I understood basically what it said.
Except that you didn’t. That is why you had to resort to misrepresentation to support your understanding.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 451 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 3:35 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 453 of 1086 (868203)
12-08-2019 4:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
12-08-2019 3:35 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Phat writes: I have only rejected assertions made by you and jar which dont line up with how the other 500+ Christians I know to interpret it or share what it says.
No. You reject what it says in favour of assertions made by apologists. They do not "share what it says". They try to explain away what it says.
Phat writes: It helps to know the author of a book before trying to understand what it says.
Exactly. You need to know the different authors of the different books that make up the Bible. You can not assume that they are all marching in lockstep and use that assumption to force a universal "meaning" on all of them.
Phat writes: Of all of the people whom I have discussed the book with, none of them except you and jar have suggested any other meaning to be gleaned.
That's obviously false. Paulk is another one who disagrees with you.
Phat writes: Now, who am I to believe?
You shouldn't believe anybody, least of all the ones who tell you what you want you hear. You should use your head.
Phat writes: First, I trust my intuition.
You shouldn't. It's often wrong.
Phat writes: Next, I ask others.
But again you only ask the ones who tell you what you want to hear. That's fundamentally dishonest.
Phat writes: You, in particular, stubbornly stand on the argument that the books say what they say period.
How can it be "stubborn" to argue that they say what they say? It's a tautology, for Christ's sake. They DO say what they say.
Phat writes: Nobody else has told me this.
That's a lie.
Phat writes: And I have reason to question it and doubt it.
But you never produce an argument against it. If you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to stop all this meta nonsense and make an actual argument.
Phat writes: We are saved from God's judgment but not from God Himself.
Nonsense. God is the only one who is threatening to harm us if we get out of line. He's the only enemy.
Phat writes: CS Lewis attempts to explain it:
YOU try to explain it. If you understand it, you should be able to explain it. And if you don't understand it, that's likely because it doesn't make sense.
Phat writes: What problems do you have with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement?
Why don't you stick to one issue at a time? Why do the apologists lie about Genesis 2-3?
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 451 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 3:35 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 456 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 5:14 PM | | ringo has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 454 of 1086 (868204)
12-08-2019 4:56 PM
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Phat writes: Oh, and jar: You claim that I make up the God whom I want. But it seems that you do also. You can't accept the idea of substitutionary atonement because you prefer personal responsibility and the honor system. No, I do not make such an argument and it seems you don't even actually read what you quote. I do not subscribe to the idea of "substitutionary atonement" because it is patently false as marketed by so much of Christianity. It is sold as "being saved" and that is simply total and complete Snake Oil. No one can know whether or not they are saved until after they have died and are judged. Sorry but that is the fact whether you or anyone else likes it. While it might be true if true it certainly makes God stupid and limited.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 455 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 5:12 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 455 of 1086 (868205)
12-08-2019 5:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 454 by jar
12-08-2019 4:56 PM
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Snake Oil or Scriptural?
So you are saying CS Lewis also fell for the snake oil?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 454 by jar, posted 12-08-2019 4:56 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 457 by jar, posted 12-08-2019 6:38 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 456 of 1086 (868206)
12-08-2019 5:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 453 by ringo
12-08-2019 4:12 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Nobody lies about Genesis. Some simply see a different message.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 4:12 PM | | ringo has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 457 of 1086 (868208)
12-08-2019 6:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 455 by Phat
12-08-2019 5:12 PM
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Re: Snake Oil or Scriptural?
No, I'm saying that as usual you do not read what your sources actually say and instead just pull out pieces parts that you think support your position. Remember that the CS Lewis piece you are quoting from was a series of War Time Propaganda broadcasts.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 455 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 5:12 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.3
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Message 458 of 1086 (868219)
12-09-2019 12:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 456 by Phat
12-08-2019 5:14 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
quote:
Nobody lies about Genesis. Some simply see a different message.
Says the man who go caught in an obvious misrepresentation. And then went on to repeat that misrepresentation.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 456 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 5:14 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 459 by Phat, posted 12-09-2019 2:56 AM | | PaulK has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 459 of 1086 (868220)
12-09-2019 2:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 458 by PaulK
12-09-2019 12:16 AM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Who praytell am I misrepresenting?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 458 by PaulK, posted 12-09-2019 12:16 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 460 by PaulK, posted 12-09-2019 2:58 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.3
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Message 460 of 1086 (868221)
12-09-2019 2:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 459 by Phat
12-09-2019 2:56 AM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
quote:
Who praytell am I misrepresenting?
You misrepresented the story, therefore the who would be the author of the story.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 459 by Phat, posted 12-09-2019 2:56 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 461 of 1086 (868228)
12-09-2019 10:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 456 by Phat
12-08-2019 5:14 PM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Phat writes: Nobody lies about Genesis.
It's a lie to say the snake lied. It's a lie to say God told the truth. It's a lie to say there was a Fall.
Phat writes: Some simply see a different message.
When the book says, "White", it's a lie to claim the message is,"Black." You're just denying. You're not presenting any argument. Back up what you claim.
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 456 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 5:14 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 462 by Phat, posted 12-09-2019 11:20 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 462 of 1086 (868235)
12-09-2019 11:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 461 by ringo
12-09-2019 10:43 AM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
All that I claim is that I worship the character of God as I understand Him. I do not worship the book nor do I accept your explanation of what the book says. I dont trust your judgment because apart from your edict to feed, clothe, and encourage others by fulfilling the message, you have no truth in you as to what the book means. Yes, I have no *evidence*. I don't know you from Adam. But I refuse to be drawn into an argument forcing me to deny my belief. You can accuse the apologists all day. Many of them are deceived. I maintain that you and jar are deceived in that particular snake/God argument. That's all.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 461 by ringo, posted 12-09-2019 10:43 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-09-2019 11:45 AM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 463 of 1086 (868240)
12-09-2019 11:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 462 by Phat
12-09-2019 11:20 AM
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Re: Lets Get Back To Christian Apologetics
Phat writes: All that I claim is that I worship the character of God as I understand Him.
You claim that you have seen no evidence of apologist lies. I've shown you evidence.
Phat writes: I do not worship the book nor do I accept your explanation of what the book says.
I'm not "explaining" anything. I'm quoting. The book does say what it says. What part of that is so difficult to understand?
Phat writes: I dont trust your judgment....
Judgement doesn't enter into it. That seems to be your basic problem: you trust the apologists' judgement. You shouldn't.
Phat writes: ... you have no truth in you as to what the book means.
Again, there doesn't need to be any truth in me. What the book says is the beginning of truth. Spackling a "meaning" on top of what it says is dishonest, especially when the supposed "meaning" directly contradicts what the book says.
Phat writes: I don't know you from Adam.
You don't need to. If you knew me since the day you were born it wouldn't make my posts any more true or more false.
Phat writes: But I refuse to be drawn into an argument forcing me to deny my belief.
Then why did you start a thread about "Testing the Christian Apologists"? Did you ever intend to actually test the apologists? Did you ever intend to actually discuss anything? Or did you intend from the start to just repeat, "Nuh uh," over and over again? Nobody is trying to force you to deny your beliefs but you're not going to get away with preaching. If what you say is wrong, it will be pointed out.
Phat writes: I maintain that you and jar are deceived in that particular snake/God argument. That's all.
You don't "maintain". You just keep repeating the same empty claim. Maintenance requires some actual work.
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 462 by Phat, posted 12-09-2019 11:20 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 465 by Phat, posted 12-10-2019 3:08 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 464 of 1086 (868241)
12-09-2019 11:50 AM
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Is there a thread somewhere on this 'the snake lied' stuff?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 465 of 1086 (868306)
12-10-2019 3:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 463 by ringo
12-09-2019 11:45 AM
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Uncovering Why Apologists as a group are dishonest
ringo writes: I'm not "explaining" anything. I'm quoting. The book does say what it says. Im more interested in what the book means rather than simply what it says. Lets take the "God character lies...snake tells truth" argument. I tried to ponder the meaning of that statement in order to reconcile with my belief. (obviously. I'm not trying to throw anything away) The only explanation that I could come up with that made sense to me was this idea: If the God character did lie, He lied to protect His innocent creation...much as a parent might tell a little white lie to protect their kids from discovering something harmful to them. We can debate all day whether the apologists were dishonest by interpreting this idea of death as a spiritual death---most EvC critics don't buy that argument chiefly because you dont see God as personal and interactive, for one--and you dont see death as anything but natural. We observe death (and rebirth) in nature all of the time. Conversely, if the snake does in fact metaphorically represent independent free will apart from God,(Satan) the snake told the truth only in that everyone now has the ability to take the brains God gave them and use that reasoning and argumentativeness against God. Of course, none of you will allow for God to be a default option, more evidence that humans were given this ultimate reasoning to rebel against Gods objective morality. You seem to claim that I should never learn what anything "means" by listening to others...but what's the difference between listening to others (who happen to be people alive today) and taking the words in an ancient scroll at patent face value by a long-dead author? Why can't my personal belief be formed through the philosophies of several authors whom I peruse? And specifically, why should I simply accept what the book supposedly says according to you guys? For one, I am puzzled how you can go against popular apologetics...in fact, I am emailing several of the well-known apologists asking them how they would deal with your arguments and what flaws, if any, they believe that your arguments have.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~" We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-09-2019 11:45 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 466 by jar, posted 12-10-2019 3:52 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 467 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2019 5:16 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 470 by ringo, posted 12-10-2019 9:43 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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