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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 332 of 1053 (751962)
03-07-2015 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by ThinAirDesigns
03-07-2015 9:05 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Not being familiar with the geology of the Grand Canyon, does this layer appear? My guess would be "no", but that's only because I hear ages of the GC being much much older than this layer. Would that mean that the layer had been eroded away before (during?) canyon formation?
Good question. It has been eroded away, but not during canyon formation. It was actualy eroded at an earlier time when the course of the Colorado River was at a lower elevation, meandering across a low coastal plain.
I'm not sure if the iridium layer has been documented in this area. I will do some research; but because erosion occurs not only in the present, if the layer was deposited on land it could have been immediately eroded just as the MSH ash is gone from most continental areas today. In other words, it's as if it never were deposited.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 9:05 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 03-07-2015 9:59 AM edge has not replied
 Message 336 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 10:03 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 339 of 1053 (751973)
03-07-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by ThinAirDesigns
03-07-2015 10:03 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
In a way, that would be one of the coolest things learned from the discovery -- it would provide 'snapshot in time' of what areas where exposed and what areas were underwater at that moment.
This refers back to the question of unconformities, which some YECs strenuously deny. And yet, there is the evidence...
Of course, it can all be explained by the flood!
Just speculating the possibilities, backed up by no knowledge whatsoever.
It all fits together if you follow the evidence far enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 10:03 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 348 of 1053 (751989)
03-07-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by kbertsche
03-07-2015 12:28 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
In fact, postulating a worldwide flood to spread the Ir creates more problems. According to flood geology, very thick layers of rock were laid down by a worldwide flood. If the flood laid down many meters or kilometers of material, why is the Ir excess concentrated into a single layer only a few centimeters thick?
Or it should be spread out through the entire package of rocks and, hence, so diluted as to preclude the creation of an anomaly, which manifestly exists.
Oh well, don't worry. The flood explains it all,,,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by kbertsche, posted 03-07-2015 12:28 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 359 of 1053 (752011)
03-07-2015 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Faith
03-07-2015 2:43 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Very interesting. If you look at the pictures of the iridium layer at GOOGLE IMAGE it stands out quite dramatically from the surrounding rock and often has a very regular look to it, like a neat ribbon of material. It also seems to look shiny or metallic, but if it's such a small part of the layer it must be something else that's giving it that look.
Exactly. These are geochemical iridium values, not visible to the naked eye, and yet are highly anomalous. The visuals on this layer are not due to iridium alone, but other chemical and textural factors as well.
To have such a precisely defined iridium layer would be impossible in a global flood environment that is is depositing thousands of meters of sediment in a year.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 2:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by RAZD, posted 03-07-2015 5:52 PM edge has not replied
 Message 362 by RAZD, posted 03-07-2015 6:02 PM edge has replied
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 11:38 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 363 of 1053 (752019)
03-07-2015 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by RAZD
03-07-2015 6:02 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Plus glass nodules and shocked quartz.
Well, these are not the visuals that Faith was discussing, but yes, they are pretty definitive features.
It would have been in an ash cloud similar (but larger) than volcanic ash clouds (that cause temporary climate changes)
The mother of all ash clouds.
What makes the clay and what is the difference from landing on land to landing in water?
I would think that the clays are from the hydrous alteration of glass and from contamination by normal sedimentation. Some of it probably was primary, derived from ground zero.
Just guess, but on land, it would just be a fine ash unless it was hot enough to become welded. I haven't heard of that. In the water, it would look like a silt deposit.

This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 375 of 1053 (752034)
03-08-2015 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
03-07-2015 11:38 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I don't see why. The sediments were deposited in separate layers after all, implying successive depositions with time gaps between them, and they can be pretty precise too, with extremely sharp contact lines.
Correct. Not compatible with the sedimentation rates one would need for a one year global flood. The iridium layer is just an example.
Whenever there are high rates of deposition you cannot simply inject an anomalous material and expect it to not be contaminated. The higher the rate of sedimentation the more that the impact ejecta would be swamped by ambient sediment.
For asteroid particles to be dispersed on top of one of the layers would be mostly a matter of timing.
And you have no such timing. It would be like pouring a cup of coffee into Niagara Falls.
You also say in Message 363 you think it would behave like silt in water, and silt floats so I'd say we have some definite possibilities for explaining its dispersal during the Flood period.
I'm not seeing this at all. What are you trying to say? Yes, it would basically look like silt, mixed in with whatever the ambient material is. Mixing is the key. The greater the sediment influx, the more diffuse your ejecta; the slower the influx, the more defined the ejecta layer would be.
And no, silt does not 'float', it stays suspended in flowing water. Please read your own links more carefully.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 11:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:44 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 377 of 1053 (752036)
03-08-2015 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:44 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Anyone can think up debunkery. My job is to think up ways to make it work.
Well, you've failed so far.
I don't see a problem with sedimentation rates and I don't see the Niagara Falls problem.
I didn't think you would. If you understood, you would see how completely wrong your analysis is. This is pretty common sense and the analogy is accurate.
Suspended versus floating, OK thanks for the correction.
ABE: Correction corrected: Go read the link again. It says "Silt floats" in so many words, "Silt floats in running water." /ABE
So much for our discussion, as usual.
First of all, you didn't say 'in running water' in your first post. Second, silt is not relatively buoyant in water and silt particles do not 'float' on the surface of water.
And really... a book from 1883? I knew that YECs are behind the times, but this is ridiculous. Care to join us in this century?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 9:07 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 386 of 1053 (752050)
03-08-2015 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by Faith
03-08-2015 9:07 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
All you are doing is tossing out absurd ideas that have nothing to do with how I or creationists I'm aware of think about how the Flood happened.
Not really. You really don't know anything about your flood nor explained any mechanisms for how all of the features you attribute to the flood formed. All you can say is something like 'the fludde did it, and if you disagree with me, you are probably insane.'
No, Faith, all we are doing is trying to show you what the consequences of your flood would be with respect to the geological record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 9:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:28 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 387 of 1053 (752051)
03-08-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
03-08-2015 10:40 AM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
If the entire earth were nothing but rocks and rocky mountains at the time of the Flood then you'd have a point, but of course you don't. The rest of the earth these days is subject to mudslides in short order and would have turned to mud under the onslaught of the heavy rain that inaugurated the Flood.
So, there were no rocks before the flood?
What are you saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 10:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:31 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 389 of 1053 (752053)
03-08-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:05 AM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
I've never claimed to be able to explain everything, jar, I focus on what I can understand and what makes sense to me, and I think I've made a good case for the Flood based on the few issues I'm up on. Mountains were built by tectonic action after the Flood.
So, then why do they not all look the same age? How come we see so much erosion of mountain ranges in the last few thousand years when it's hardly noticeable in the human time frame?
I've grappled with the white cliffs of Dover and the salt beds in many another thread and don't claim to have worked it all out but I'm certainly not ignoring those issues. I'm not palming any pea and you are obnoxiously irrelevant as usual.
And you have failed on all accounts. Is this an argument or a complaint?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:36 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 391 of 1053 (752056)
03-08-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:28 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Yeah, sure, but to do that you totally misunderstand and misrepresent the arguments I've been making so your opinion is irrelevant.
You have not made any arguments. Only assertions that 'the fludde did it'.
Give us something to work with...
If you can't visualize it the way I visualize it, and other creationists visualize it, your opinion is worthless.
If you can't present a cogent argument with some kind of support, your argument is worthless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:40 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 394 of 1053 (752059)
03-08-2015 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:31 AM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
My saying the earth was not "nothing but" rocks gets heard by you as saying "there were no rocks" before the Flood? What absolute nonsense I'm always having to answer here.
So, you admit that there were some rocks prior to the flood. Okay, now we're getting someplace. Okay, where did those rocks come from? Can we see their source after the rest of the earth slid into the ocean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:40 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 398 of 1053 (752063)
03-08-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:36 AM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
Why don't they all look the same age? Oh good grief. There are different kinds of mountains, now, aren't there edgey wedgey? There are the kind that were thrust up in blocks of strata like the Rockies, which are highly compacted rock and less subject to erosion than others, and there are the kind that were more gently compressed accordion-style like the Appalachians, which are more easily eroded where the softer sediments are exposed, and there are mountains produced by volcanoes. Of course there's a difference in erosion and therefore in how old they look.
So, the Appalachians and the Alps, arguably the same type of mountains, being caused by continent-continent collision with folded sedimentary sequences, should look the same?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:55 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 399 of 1053 (752064)
03-08-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:40 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I've presented plenty of cogent arguments elsewhere.
Well, I would hope so, since you have not presented any here.
I'm simply being forced to answer some of the more egregious accusations and misrepresentations. I don't regard this as a thread for discussing the Flood and really don't want to be here. I just have to answer some of the craziness you are all throwing at me. If you would just back off and let the thread resume its original purpose of bashing creationists and trying to develop some kind of anti-creationist curriculum, as long as it didn't impinge on my own favorite issues I would be very happy to stay off it.
Ah, so you have no choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 401 of 1053 (752066)
03-08-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by Faith
03-08-2015 11:40 AM


Re: Why Creation scoence can never be more than lies and conjobs.
I don't know if there were rocks before the Flood or how many or where, and I never made any claims about that. I assume there was "bedrock" beneath the land mass. Beyond that I've never speculated about pre-Flood rocks.
Then I'm wondering why you said this:
quote:
Forty days and nights of continuous rain would saturate the land and collapse it very speedily, unlike rain that starts and stops and allows the land to dry out. Just a few days of continuous local rain causes dangerous mudslides so continuous worldwide rain would turn the whole world into mud.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 11:56 AM edge has replied

  
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