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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 64 of 1053 (750446)
02-15-2015 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ThinAirDesigns
02-15-2015 9:43 PM


Re: C14 dating
When we get to C14 dating, I'll be able to contribute a bit.
I have done somewhere over 650 C14 dates in a long career as an archaeologist, and have had to study the topic to figure out what I'm getting.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-15-2015 9:43 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-16-2015 2:23 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 66 of 1053 (750449)
02-15-2015 10:56 PM


C14 dating
ThinAirDesigns, I can assure you that kbertsche is extremely knowledgeable about C14 dating.
Here is a link to some of his writing:
http://datab.us/...n%2BDating%2BPlayListIDPLF412A23C13F494A7
He can help you with the theoretical aspects of this subject, and I can help with some of the practical aspects.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 70 of 1053 (750489)
02-16-2015 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ThinAirDesigns
02-16-2015 2:23 PM


Re: C14 dating
Coyote writes:
When we get to C14 dating, I'll be able to contribute a bit.
I have done somewhere over 650 C14 dates in a long career as an archaeologist, and have had to study the topic to figure out what I'm getting.
Thanks Coyote. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions and I'm grateful to have resources to answer them.
JB
My main areas are sample selection and interpreting the results.
Others can help you in other areas of C14 dating, just as RAZD has already provided some great information on calibration.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-16-2015 2:23 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 78 of 1053 (750506)
02-16-2015 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by kbertsche
02-16-2015 10:20 PM


Taylor
Interesting, I did not know that about Erv Taylor.
I have followed his excellent writings and even worked with him on a project about 25 years back. That subject never came up.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by kbertsche, posted 02-16-2015 10:20 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 93 of 1053 (750649)
02-19-2015 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by RAZD
02-19-2015 9:23 PM


Re: and the scientific method
Good flowsheet on the scientific method.
Now, to stretch your imagination, lets see one for Intelligent Design.
That should be fun!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by RAZD, posted 02-19-2015 9:23 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Taq, posted 02-20-2015 1:57 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 101 of 1053 (750698)
02-20-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ThinAirDesigns
02-20-2015 7:00 PM


First, you don't date "fossils" with carbon-14 dating. Fossils are once-living things that have had their organic materials replaced by stone. Stone doesn't date well when you're looking for organics.
But, some "fossils" are only partially fossilized, and retain some organics, so they can sometimes provide a date.
The initial ratio between C14 and C12 is not a problem, as that figure can be supplied through calibration. It was initially assumed that the levels of C14 were constant, but that was shown not to be the case early on (see De Vries 1958).
The need from that point on was to establish the initial correct ratios, and that has been done using the calibration curve--the most recent of which in IntCal13.
In other words, the atmospheric levels of C14 vary a bit, maybe up to about 11 or 12%. To get a more accurate date, this factor needs to be accounted for. Calibration against tree-rings, varves, corals, and other annular data provided a means to do this. And, historical items of known ages such as Egyptian relics, are also used.
The bottom line--C12 is pretty much a constant, while C14 is a variable: it varies both from the initial value and due to radioactive decay through time. But, by controlling for that initial value through calibration the remaining variable is time so the method becomes quite accurate.
As for the math--I'll leave that as an exercise for the student.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-20-2015 7:00 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 116 of 1053 (750736)
02-21-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ThinAirDesigns
02-21-2015 12:08 PM


I have never bothered with that 1.03 correction. I just use the calibrated range and intercept.
And I have done over 650 dates in my research area, and have nearly 7,000 dates in my computer.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 12:08 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 1:01 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 121 of 1053 (750752)
02-21-2015 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ThinAirDesigns
02-21-2015 5:11 PM


On the Calib. 7 site it says,
Any questions or comments regarding CALIB should be directed to Prof. Paula Reimer p.j.reimer@qub.ac.uk
She is very nice and usually answers quickly.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 5:11 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 7:34 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 125 of 1053 (750758)
02-21-2015 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ThinAirDesigns
02-21-2015 7:34 PM


Calib 7 is a web-based program to calibrate radiocarbon dates, using the Conventional Radiocarbon Age and producing either AD/BC dates or BP dates.
That program uses IntCal13, the latest calibration curve, and the email address I gave you should be good for answering any of the questions you have posed here about what those numbers represent.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 7:34 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 126 of 1053 (750759)
02-21-2015 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by RAZD
02-21-2015 8:21 PM


btw CAL BP refers to calendar BP and not calibrated BP (even though this should be the same).
You are correct, those two are the same.
When a radiocarbon sample comes back from the laboratory it is generally expressed as a Conventional Age, or Radiocarbon Age. This is the Measured Age corrected for C13, using a half life of 5568, and using AD 1950 as the base year with all results calculated back from that point.
When the laboratory (or you) calibrates that Conventional Age they express the resulting calendar age as, for example, "Cal BC 6250 to 6040 (Cal BP 8200-7990)."
Beta Analytic, the largest radiocarbon laboratory in the world, expresses their calibrated dates in just that manner. (This example is from one of my samples.)
Hope this helps.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2015 8:21 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 228 of 1053 (751685)
03-04-2015 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by ThinAirDesigns
03-04-2015 7:54 PM


Re: Carbon dating paper sought
I contacted Dr. Lee some years ago and he sent me a copy of the journal.
The famous quote used by creationists begins somewhere in the introduction and after the ellipsis (...) ends somewhere in the conclusions many pages later.
I have it at the office and I'll try to remember to dig it out. Maybe I could scan it or something.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-04-2015 7:54 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-04-2015 8:40 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 236 of 1053 (751829)
03-06-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by ThinAirDesigns
03-04-2015 8:40 PM


Re: Carbon dating paper sought
Coyote writes:
I have it at the office and I'll try to remember to dig it out. Maybe I could scan it or something.
Oh that would be awesome if you could. Much appreciated.
Thanks
JB
I have the article as a pdf, about 1.7 megs in size.
If you send me an email address via private messaging I'll forward it to you.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-04-2015 8:40 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-06-2015 11:32 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 372 of 1053 (752029)
03-07-2015 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by RAZD
03-07-2015 9:40 PM


Re: intent to deceive?
Creationists have to misrepresent, distort, quote-mine, ignore contradictory evidence, develop elaborate fantasy explanations, and lie in many other ways because the real-world evidence simply doesn't support their beliefs.
As the first part of defending their beliefs, they have to deceive themselves.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by RAZD, posted 03-07-2015 9:40 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 419 of 1053 (752087)
03-08-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:42 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I'm no scientist but...
You are exactly the opposite of a scientist.
For a creationist that means we have to make use of it in terms of what the Bible shows us, or rethink the whole thing.
That might be a good idea.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 468 of 1053 (752268)
03-09-2015 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by ThinAirDesigns
03-09-2015 3:04 PM


It's interesting to read where may YEC sites now say radiocarbon dating is no good past about 4000BC. This allows them to fit it in to the biblical artifacts where they want to use it, but claim it's unreliable otherwise.
The YEC sites I have seen often say that radiocarbon dating is not accurate for times before the flood.
However, they don't all agree on the exact reasons for that inaccuracy.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-09-2015 3:04 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-09-2015 9:29 PM Coyote has not replied

  
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