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Author Topic:   Wealth Distribution in the USA
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 3 of 531 (699319)
05-17-2013 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
05-15-2013 11:49 AM


protect the minority of the opulent
From the birth of america, the propaganda of the elites has served the 1%ers well:
"the primary function of government is to protect the minority of the opulent from the majority of the poor." - James Madison
Indeed, I think there are too many americans who would say the wealth distribution is not unequal enough. They believe that the 1%ers are already being too oppressed by government regulations and taxes.
Their indoctrination to protect the elites is complete. They will NEVER consider any form of socialism or fair economic redistribution even when against their best interests.
However, I do feel there is a threshold that eventually leads all peasants to rise against their overlords. Unfortunately, the greed of the 1%ers and the apathy of the 99%ers hasn't triggered that threshold, . . . yet.
Perhaps the elites hope that cooking a frog over a long enough period, so the frog doesn't leap out of the pan, but rather, just . . . cooks . . . is true.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 6 of 531 (699329)
05-17-2013 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Straggler
05-17-2013 1:24 PM


Re: protect the minority of the opulent
STRAG writes:
1) When did this extreme level of economic disparity begin? Was it always such or are there specific historical governmental policy decisions we can attribute the current situation to?
Are you asking only of american history? The american founding fathers incorporated slavery in their new system of government. Seems like that was an extreme level of economic disparity.
If world history, you europeans can better present fuedal/peasant societies/histories better than us americans.
STRAG writes:
2) Right wingers like to point out statistics such as the top 10% pay 70% of total taxes. But think about this for a moment. If a single individual were given all the wealth of the nation they would pay 100% of the nations tax. Would this be a symptom of a tax system loaded against the wealthy? Or simply a result of wealth being too concentrated? I would suggest the latter...
I don't see this as a pragmatic question. Are you going somewhere with this?

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 81 of 531 (699535)
05-21-2013 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Coyote
05-21-2013 1:08 AM


They didn't earn it either . . .
Coyote writes:
you didn't earn it so it has far less value than money you actually earned through your own efforts.
Such bullshit!
The wealthy, EARNING their wealth!??? Puhlease . . .
Using unfair laws, corporate welfare, lack of regulations, lying , and stealing are the way the wealthy gain even more unfair wealth accumulation. Not 'hard work ethics':
Seams the Bagladesh workers working in unsafe conditions were working very hard. Yet it is the Walmart owners who are sucking on the gravy. Do you really believe the Walmart owners work harder than the Bangladesh workers:
quote:
After 1,300 Die In Bangladesh Walmart Refuses To Sign Safer Factory Agreement
Walmart, the third largest public corporation and mega retail chain in the world, has refused to sign an agreement with other retail chains that will improve safety and working conditions for factory workers overseas.
zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.
How about unfair taxing?:
quote:
General Electric Paid No Federal Taxes in 2010
General Electric Paid No Federal Taxes in 2010 - ABC News
You think Dick Chaney ever worked hard in his life? Well maybe if you consider lying about WMD to be hard work:
quote:
Halliburton 1Q 2012 Profits Rises To $627 Million On Record North American Revenue
Halliburton 1Q 2012 Profits Rises To $627 Million On Record North American Revenue | HuffPost Impact
What about stealing? Do you consider stealing to be HARD WORK?:
quote:
Ex-Employees Fight for Shreds of Enron Pensions
Ex-Employees Fight for Shreds of Enron Pensions : NPR
And what about the industrial military complex sucking on the public's teat. america's military budget equals the rest of the world combined. Is it HARD WORK for the owners to take money for products that the public and even the military doesn't want?:
quote:
Military doesn't want more tanks, but Congress keeps them rolling in
http://www.courierpress.com/...re-tanks-but-military-says-no
How about the government pushing nearly-secret free trade agreements? Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP), will improve the wealthy's lot in life, but will hurt the 99%ers.
quote:
In reality, the deal has almost nothing to do with trade: actual trade barriers between these countries are already very low. The TPP is an effort to use the holy grail of free trade to impose conditions and override domestic laws in a way that would be almost impossible if the proposed measures had to go through the normal legislative process.
The Pacific free trade deal that's anything but free | Dean Baker | The Guardian
And lastly, how about the wallstreet bailouts. Talk about criminal stealing. Or do you also think that is "hard work" to gain wealth?
quote:
Secrets and Lies of the Bailout
Page not found – Rolling Stone
Coyote, if you really are against FREE handouts and unfair economic distribution, you would rally against the 1%ers getting unfair advantages over the 99%ers. Until you do, you're a hypocrite.
Edited by dronester, : fixed quotes
Edited by dronester, : quotes still appeared wrong
Edited by dronester, : fix quotes, ONE more time.

This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(2)
Message 86 of 531 (699541)
05-21-2013 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Percy
05-21-2013 1:21 PM


Percy writes:
Why shouldn't wages be set by the market?
Because this is the market that establishes the wages:
I feel this is 'unfair.' But I guess others feel differently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 05-21-2013 1:21 PM Percy has replied

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 274 of 531 (700005)
05-29-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Percy
05-29-2013 9:47 AM


Re: Value
Percy writes:
A farmer hires someone to help him harvest his wheat. Do you really believe that worker now has some kind of claim on a portion of the "economic benefit" of the farmer's crop? No, he does not.
You may attempt to compartmentalize the argument but . . .
I, and the The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the UN General Assembly on 10 December 1948 believe the worker does have minimal claims that would affect the profitability.
Though the usa has been silently backpeddling away from most of its human rights protections since it was adopted, none the less, the laws and rules ARE there. Check out Article 23, 24 and 25 below:
quote:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 10 December 1948.
It represents the universal recognition that basic rights and fundamental freedoms are inherent to all human beings, inalienable and equally applicable to everyone, and that every one of us is born free and equal in dignity and rights. Whatever our nationality, place of residence, gender, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, language, or any other status, the international community on December 10 1948 made a commitment to upholding dignity and justice for all of us.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/history.shtml
Edited by dronester, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 9:47 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 1:05 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 281 of 531 (700027)
05-29-2013 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Percy
05-29-2013 1:05 PM


Re: Value
Percy writes:
Companies and their revenues and their expenses and their debts and their profits and their losses belong to shareholders.
Sorry, no. Corporations don't exist in a bubble. The workers and the rest of earth's inhabitants are partners in the stewardship of Earth's future too.
Percy writes:
Pointing that out is not wrong
If you mean, that this is the current global economic model that corporations practice through exploitation, safety deregulation, tax evasion, war-criminal conduct, stealing of pensions, corporate welfare, government corporatism, poisoning the environment, and outright stealing in bailouts, I guess you are correct.
Percy writes:
and it's not an argument in favor of exploitation or human rights abuses.
and it's not an argument AGAINST exploitation or human rights either.
Percy writes:
What's wrong is arguments that the contributions a job makes to a company's balance sheet belong to some degree to the jobholder. They do not. They belong to the shareholders.
Yes, I am quite sure that Walmart's owners and nearly all other corporations would argue that idea.
Percy writes:
If there's nothing in an employment contract about a share of profits or revenues, then employment does not convey any sharing of them with the jobholder. Period.
It seems that would be an argument for corporations to be masters of men.
For me, I'd prefer Walmart to be subservient to human interests. But that's just me . . .
quote:
After 1,300 Die In Bangladesh Walmart Refuses To Sign Safer Factory Agreement
Walmart, the third largest public corporation and mega retail chain in the world, has refused to sign an agreement with other retail chains that will improve safety and working conditions for factory workers overseas.
zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.
Edited by dronester, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 1:05 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 3:39 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 286 of 531 (700033)
05-29-2013 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Percy
05-29-2013 3:39 PM


Re: Value
Percy writes:
Corporations have to follow laws and regulations and pay taxes just like everyone else, . . .
Wow, you believe that do you?
quote:
General Electric Paid No Federal Taxes in 2010
General Electric Paid No Federal Taxes in 2010 - ABC News
Percy writes:
You're arguing against the principle of ownership,
No, I am arguing about collective rights and responsibilities that we all share.
Percy writes:
It is governments that serve the interests of the people. Corporations and people then follow the laws that were supposedly designed to serve those interests.
You believe that do you? . . .
quote:
Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP)
In reality, the deal has almost nothing to do with trade: actual trade barriers between these countries are already very low. The TPP is an effort to use the holy grail of free trade to impose conditions and override domestic laws in a way that would be almost impossible if the proposed measures had to go through the normal legislative process.
The Pacific free trade deal that's anything but free | Dean Baker | The Guardian
Percy writes:
What's that supposed to show, that people who believe in property ownership favor practices that kill people?
Yeah, I guess that's what you would see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 3:39 PM Percy has replied

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 517 of 531 (712753)
12-06-2013 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by RAZD
12-05-2013 7:51 PM


Let’s Cap CEO Pay
RAZD writes:
The major problem today is wage inequality,
Agreed.
Not surprisingly, I haven't seen this story in america's corporate media, what do you think:
quote:
Swiss Activists: Let’s Cap CEO Pay
December 2, 2013
Swiss voters struck down an initiative to limit CEO pay to no more than twelve times the lowest-paid worker.
The Swiss pay cap failed, by a 65-35 percent margin.
Activists in the youth wing of Switzerland’s Social Democratic Party had spent four years working on behalf of the 1:12 Initiative for Fair Pay. They had collected the 100,000 signatures needed to get on the ballot and enlisted the support of Swiss labor unions and the country’s two largest left-of-center political parties.
The young 1:12 activists ran a delightfully creative campaign. No corporate executives, they argued, should be able to make more in a month than workers can make in a year.
The 1:12 vote, despite all this noble effort, still fell disappointedly short.
Do Swiss voters simply not care that top executives at world-famous Swiss brands like Nestl and Swatch are making well over 100 times more than their workers? Hardly. They care plenty.
The 1:12 initiative was running dead even in the polls into Octoberuntil Swiss corporations unleashed a lushly financed fear-mongering ad blitz. If the 1:12 initiative passed, they argued, Swiss-based multinationals would shift their operations to friendlier locales, Switzerland’s tax receipts would plummet and the nation’s social safety net would tear into tatters.
Here in the United States, of course, developments along these lines seem politically inconceivable. At the height of the Great Recession, we couldn’t even prevent million-dollar bonuses for CEOs at bailed-out financial giants.
Swiss Activists: Let’s Cap CEO Pay | The Nation#

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 519 of 531 (712758)
12-06-2013 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Phat
12-06-2013 2:00 PM


Re: Let’s Cap CEO Pay
Phat writes:
but the wealthy trick the middle class
What makes the middle class so easy to fool?
Americans are famous for being stupid (according to the recent 2012 Program for International Student Assessment, the U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science, U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science : The Two-Way : NPR), but what about the Swiss?
Phat writes:
The wealthy wont give up anything without pressure.
Sheesh, all the Swiss had to do was vote. How difficult could that be?

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 Message 520 by Theodoric, posted 12-06-2013 2:51 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 522 of 531 (712778)
12-06-2013 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by Theodoric
12-06-2013 2:51 PM


Re: Let’s Cap CEO Pay
hey there Theo,
Drone writes:
What makes the middle class so easy to fool?
Theo writes:
Religion.
Well:
1. Are the Swiss particularly religious?
2. Are people stupid because they are religious or are people religious because they are stupid?
3. What about Pope Francis' recent calling of unfettered Capitalism 'Tyranny?' Will this sway the stupid?
Pope Francis Calls Unfettered Capitalism 'Tyranny' | BillMoyers.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Theodoric, posted 12-06-2013 2:51 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Theodoric, posted 12-06-2013 3:13 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 525 of 531 (712781)
12-06-2013 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by Theodoric
12-06-2013 3:13 PM


Re: Let’s Cap CEO Pay
Theo writes:
1. Swiss as an example is flawed.
Perhaps, but in regard to their recent anti-CEO-vote, their voting behavior should be revealing in some aspect. Can we not compare/contrast them to america in ANY respect?
Theo writes:
3. Of course not. The Pope is a minor player in world society and politics.
If he keeps up with the authentic Jesus-talk, perhaps that would change?
Theo writes:
2. Commission a study.
It will have to wait till I finish my current study: "Was Captain Kangaroo neither a captain nor a kangaroo?"

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