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Author Topic:   Wealth Distribution in the USA
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 14 of 531 (699347)
05-17-2013 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by foreveryoung
05-17-2013 7:08 PM


If each of the 5 income quintiles held exactly the same amount of wealth through force...aka taxation, how do you think the standard of living would fare through time. I'm not talking about immediately after the wealth was removed from the upper brackets; I'm talking about after several decades of such removal.
You wouldn't like the results.
If you want more of something, subsidize it. It you want less of something, tax it.
Forcibly taxing enough money from the "rich" to even everyone out would cause the "rich" to stop working as hard. What's the point or working, if your hard-earned money is just going to be taxen away?
And those who are getting free money, what is their incentive to work at all?
The result would come to resemble a third-world country in short order.
But the hard-core socialists keep trying to repeal the laws of human nature, and never learn from their mistakes. Here is a good summary:
Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by foreveryoung, posted 05-17-2013 7:08 PM foreveryoung has seen this message but not replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 16 of 531 (699350)
05-17-2013 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
05-17-2013 8:59 PM


Re: Tax and Force are not synonymous
Nor is taxation synonymous with force.
Sure it is. You just try ducking taxes and see what happens. Force is the ultimate "argument" that the government has for enforcing its edicts.
In addition, every management study I've ever seen has shown that money is NOT the main or best motivator for increasing productivity.
For who? I agree that for many workers there are a lot of other motivators for increasing productivity.
But for those who are wealthy? Try taking 90% of their earnings and see how motivated they become! Their primary motivation will be to duck those taxes somehow!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 05-17-2013 8:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 18 of 531 (699352)
05-17-2013 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
05-17-2013 9:12 PM


Re: Tax and Force are not synonymous
It is only the current crop of fascist Republicans that make such gross misrepresentations.
Bullshit.
Taxes are a mutually agreed upon commitment.
More bullshit. (See below.)
Certainly there will be some low life worthless bastards that would expend their efforts in avoiding paying taxes but that would be no great loss.
The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it which for the majority translates as "Bread and Circuses."
"Bread and Circuses" is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invaderthe barbarians enter Rome.
― Robert A. Heinlein
And when this happens, what do you think the productive members of society do? They're certainly not going to spend all their efforts to support the parasites. And why should they?
Socialists spend so much time demonizing those productive folks who have earned a lot of money through their efforts, but they seldom realize they would be doomed without them. Socialists have to have someone to extort money from! (See also the parable about the goose and the golden egg.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-17-2013 9:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 05-17-2013 10:06 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 20 of 531 (699358)
05-17-2013 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
05-17-2013 10:06 PM


Re: Tax and Force are not synonymous
Let the 1% run away. Good riddance. They are no great loss.
If the lefties keep it up, you may get your wish.
According to new IRS data, the 1.35 million taxpayers that represent the highest-earning one percent of the Americans who filed federal income tax returns in 2010 earned 18.9% of the total gross income and paid 37.4% of all federal income taxes paid in that year.
Link
You want to try to get by without that 37.4% of all federal income taxes? The folks no longer getting their Obamaphones and free government cheese would riot!
I know this is contrary to socialist thinking, but have you ever considered that we need more rich folks, not fewer? And that we should be encouraging them to earn more, not demonizing them?
Now wouldn't that make more sense?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 05-17-2013 10:06 PM jar has replied

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 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2013 9:17 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 43 of 531 (699440)
05-19-2013 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Adequate
05-19-2013 9:17 PM


Re: Tax and Force are not synonymous
Nice try, but you should take this topic seriously.
True wealth is earned, not "acquired." Crony capitalism is a plague that should be eliminated, while any honestly earned money should be honored.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2013 9:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2013 10:36 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 45 of 531 (699443)
05-19-2013 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dr Adequate
05-19-2013 10:36 PM


Re: Tax and Force are not synonymous
Nice try, but you should take this topic seriously.
I was. It is seriously orthodox conservative doctrine that rich people somehow make everyone wealthy through the magic of "trickle-down". Well, if everyone who voted Republican in the last election joined a scheme such as I proposed in my previous post, then they could produce 60,000 more rich people, thus magically making everyone richer, including themselves. One wonders why they don't.
More bullshit.
Do you think paupers make anyone better off? Are socialists trying to expropriate money from paupers? How many paupers start businesses and hire people? Paupers are a drain on society, not an asset. Those with money can create jobs and spread money around. Those who work for their money and create wealth are an asset, not a class to be demonized.
You destroy that class of people and you think anyone will be better off? What a joke!
True wealth is earned, not "acquired."
Are true wealth and false wealth both the same shade of green and equally accepted by retailers?
Different issue entirely.
Crony capitalism is a plague that should be eliminated, while any honestly earned money should be honored.
Well said, comrade. When do we start expropriating the expropriators?
Socialists have been trying to expropriate every loose dime that they can, but what happens when they run out of people to loot?
Socialists should realize that they need a lot more wealthy people to support their nefarious schemes, not fewer. When everyone is reduced to pauperism who will the socialists have left to loot? Their whole sorry scheme will collapse around their ears.
But still they and their sycophants continue to decry those who have earned their money by hard and honest work. What a joke!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2013 10:36 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 69 of 531 (699513)
05-20-2013 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jon
05-20-2013 8:01 PM


Right now:
    • We have happy people working hard to create wealth.
    • We have people not working to create wealth.
    • We have people receiving wealth they didn't work to create.
    The only difference in my proposal is that it is more equitable.
Equitable for whom?
Certainly not for those who actually create wealth!
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is straight out of Karl Marx, and that sentiment has been shown to belong in the trash bin of history, one of the stupidest ideas ever conceived in the fevered mind of a ne'er-do-well.
Those who believe this nonsense are generally the non-productive, or "intellectuals" of a similar stripe. They are always willing to "share the wealth" but rarely do they actually create wealth themselves.
Personally I have nothing that could be called wealth, but yet there are always those willing to "share" it, starting with the government and their dependents, of which there are an ever-increasing number.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Jon, posted 05-20-2013 8:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 05-20-2013 11:20 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 75 of 531 (699522)
05-21-2013 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jon
05-20-2013 11:20 PM


The only difference in my proposal is that it is more equitable.
Equitable for whom?
Certainly not for those who actually create wealth!
But neither is the current system; not by far.
You're right, the current system is not equitable for those who actually create wealth.
Personally I have nothing that could be called wealth
Well then you'll love the system I've proposed; it's a system of wealth redistribution. If you ain't got wealth, then you ain't got worries.
Because your such a peach of a fellow I'm going to give you a trophy indicating you won the Indy 500 next week.
But if you're honest, it will be of no value to you as you didn't actually win that race.
The same is true of redistributed wealth--you didn't earn it so it has far less value than money you actually earned through your own efforts. It is nothing to be proud of.
So no, I am not in favor of redistribution even if I were to be the beneficiary.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 05-20-2013 11:20 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 82 of 531 (699536)
05-21-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
05-21-2013 12:16 PM


Who creates 'the wealth' when a factory worker in Vietnam turns a few dollars of material into a pair of Adidas that sell for 150 dollars? Apparently not the factory worker who gets 60 dollars a month for doing so. Apparently only the company who manufactures the demand for sneakers is creating any wealth
The factory worker earns his pay. The local company he works most likely earns a profit as well, as do the suppliers of the materials used in the shoes.
The shipping company that transports the shoes most likely earns a profit as well, as does the longshoremen who unload the boats and the truckers and the trucking companies who carry the shoes around the country. Finally the store that sells the shoes earns a nice markup, as does the company that commissioned the shoes to be made in the first place.
And governments around the globe are siphoning off their cut at each step of the process.
The principal point is that, except for the governmental involvement, at each level some value (i.e., wealth) is created by voluntary interactions between people or companies selling their labor, materials, or services.
Why do lefties have such a problem with that?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 05-21-2013 12:16 PM NoNukes has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 459 of 531 (701477)
06-19-2013 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by Taq
06-19-2013 9:46 PM


People are rich because they keep money as profit instead of spending it on employee wages.
So you're against profit? Why don't you just leave and find a place where you're going to be happier? Might I suggest North Korea? I suspect the populace there has no benefit from profit at any level.
If you cut government spending then government workers will be sent home without a job.
And might have to find some productive line of work that would actually benefit the economy?
Aren't you aware that for every government employee there are several taxpayers supporting their salaries and benefits--and that by definition government is a drain on the economy rather than a benefit?
These are two unavoidable facts. How it affects the overall economy is not so clear.
I'll make it very clear for you: more productive workers will benefit everyone, while more government parasites are a drain on the economy.
If this were not the case the communist countries (workers' paradises) would have had flourishing economies rather than going bust.
The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Taq, posted 06-19-2013 9:46 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 488 by bluegenes, posted 06-21-2013 1:42 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 469 of 531 (701532)
06-20-2013 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by xongsmith
06-20-2013 2:13 PM


Re: who is a drain?
And how does one make a profit that does not return to the economy?

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 473 of 531 (701545)
06-20-2013 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by jar
06-20-2013 3:38 PM


Re: who is a drain?
Exactly. Just like Scrooge McDuck. That is a great example of the inequity of wealth distribution in the US today.
Scrooge McDuck is a fictional character that doesn't reflect anything about the real world.
In the real world profits are invested in banks, stocks, bonds, businesses or additional business merchandise, plant expansion, dividends to millions of shareholders, donations to charity, and many other similar places.
Those profits that go into tax shelters are the result of socialists and their nasty tax schemes that are designed to tax the productive and spread the proceeds among the non-productive. The golden goose parable comes to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by jar, posted 06-20-2013 3:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 475 of 531 (701547)
06-20-2013 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by jar
06-20-2013 8:27 PM


Re: who is a drain?
But again, you offer nothing but bumper sticker sloganism as seems to always be the case.
And you offer nothing but redistributionist socialist dogma that has failed worldwide.
What good is it when everybody is poor?
Your socialist system relies on the profit and wealth created by others to exist, so you should be less critical of those who do create the wealth and profit that you (general, not personal) rely on so heavily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by jar, posted 06-20-2013 8:27 PM jar has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 481 of 531 (701554)
06-20-2013 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by jar
06-20-2013 9:44 PM


Re: minimum annual income.
We need to revise inheritance (not estate) taxes to prevent the continued growth of a "monied" class.
Right, and you say you don't kowtow to socialist dogma?
Your obvious hatred for a "monied" class speaks volumes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by jar, posted 06-20-2013 9:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2221 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 489 of 531 (701598)
06-21-2013 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by bluegenes
06-21-2013 1:42 PM


Re: Let's look at the reality of "big" government.
Why Government Spending Does Nothing for Jobs
While most economists and policy makers are focusing on the International Monetary Fund’s epiphany on the perils of austerity, some researchers at the IMF have offered another take on the fiscal-policy debate. They found that less is more, even when it comes to the size and scope of government.
More.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by bluegenes, posted 06-21-2013 1:42 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Jon, posted 06-21-2013 10:04 PM Coyote has replied
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