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Author Topic:   Connecticut abolishes the Death penalty
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 31 of 205 (660704)
04-28-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by onifre
04-27-2012 12:53 PM


Here's what I'm saying: some people need to be executed for the crime they commit. There is no reason for some extremely unpredictable killer/s to be kept alive. In some cases, murders have been able to kill behind prison walls too, so the point of protecting future lives can be made here as well. What's the point of keeping a Gacy or Bundy around? I just don't see what is gained.
It is a justice, not, the only justice. Very few people are executed and the final order takes a while to be carried out. In cases where something like the Gacy or Bundy murders have accured, a fit punishment is death.
Yes, but you don't address the question of wrongful conviction. In the case of Gacy or Bundy I suppose it's quite definite that they're guilty, but in other cases of murder there have been errors ... so what are we to do? We could give juries the choice of three verdicts ... "Not Guilty", "Guilty", and "Really Really Definitely Guilty, This Isn't One Of Those Dumb Mistakes You're Going To Read About In The Papers Ten Years From Now".
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by onifre, posted 04-27-2012 12:53 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by onifre, posted 04-28-2012 5:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 34 of 205 (660733)
04-29-2012 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by onifre
04-28-2012 5:37 PM


I have. Not many, if any, can be proven beyond doubt to have been wrongful executions.
"If any"? There are cases where people have been convicted for murder and their supposed victims have turned up alive and well. (Examples here, and here, here.)
As for "proven beyond doubt", that's not how we do it. You don't have to prove beyond doubt that someone is innocent, or just think how many crimes you could be convicted of. Can we execute you because no-one can prove beyond doubt that you're not a murderer?
And nowadays with DNA evidence the risk of wrongful conviction is minimal, if it's even present at all.
It is true that DNA evidence has exonerated many innocent people. But the moral of that is not that the Angel Of DNA will always turn up in time to save the innocent. There are plenty of cases where DNA is not a factor in the evidence. And we should expect a similar proportion of wrongful convictions in the cases where it isn't a factor as in the cases where it has been retrospectively applied.
The future will also reduce even that most minimal of chances of being wrongfully convicted.
Also, we'll live in cities on the moon, hooray! But until that great day comes, perhaps we should shape our policy around the circumstances obtaining in the present.
Some people need to be put to death for what they've done ...
(1) Why?
(2) Some people don't need to be put to death for what they haven't done. The statement that the guilty should be put to death, even if true, does not entirely abrogate the (more easily justifiable) statement that the innocent shouldn't.
If you execute the guilty, you must occasionally execute the innocent. Is it worth the price, and if so, why? What exactly do we get out of executing the guilty that compensates us for executing the innocent?
Does it also compensate them? If you were sitting in the condemned cell yourself, contemplating your own innocence, would you think: "Despite its occasional flaws, this system is still superior to one which would let me live"?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by onifre, posted 04-28-2012 5:37 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by onifre, posted 04-29-2012 6:14 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 56 of 205 (660809)
04-29-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by onifre
04-29-2012 6:14 AM


Hey look they weren't wrongfully executed.
If you'd clicked on the first link, you'd know better:
WILLIAM JACKSON MARION
Mistaken identity of a corpse led to his mistaken execution
It's in the first paragraph, just after his name.
I'm talking about cases, the very few, if any, where someone who was executed turned out to be innnocent. There are none you can point to where there is serious proof of that.
Apart from, y'know, the ones where there is.
We're addressing wrongful executions not wrongful convictions.
Show me cases of wrongful executions. Wrongful conviction will always happen. But wrongful executions don't.
Because, by magic, wrongful convictions don't happen when there's the death penalty. It makes juries infallible ... oh, except for the mistakes they make, which you can apparently wish out of existence.
If Seal Team 6 carries out the hit and an innocent woman dies, oh well, cost of doing business. If a guy pulls a switch and maybe just maybe once in a blue moon an "innocent" person is executed, time to cry out for the abolishment of the death penalty?
I can't imaging how that makes sense in your brain? But I'm curious to see how you'll try to reason with it.
I can't see that we get that much out of killing the guilty that makes it worth it.
Same with Seal Team 6 --- if their mission was purely vengeance, rather than defending us against a threat, and if there's risk of them killing the innocent, then why do it? How much fun is vengeance, really?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by onifre, posted 04-29-2012 6:14 AM onifre has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 128 of 205 (660951)
05-01-2012 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by onifre
05-01-2012 12:15 AM


Bin Laden got a bullet to the dome and his body tossed out like fish chum. I was told he was guilty so fuck it he must be, right? I don't really know.
Well, in the first place, he was guilty. Are we going to have to go through your watered-down 9/11 Truther thing again?
In the second place, he wasn't assassinated. He was killed resisting arrest. That sometimes happens in the justice system you're suddenly so keen on. If he'd surrendered, he'd now be on trial in New York, with an attorney and everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 12:15 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 7:15 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 147 of 205 (661053)
05-01-2012 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by onifre
05-01-2012 7:15 AM


"Go back to bed, America. Your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here. Here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed, America. Here is American Gladiators. Here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go, America! You are free to do as we tell you! You are free to do what we tell you! "
"Also, you know that guy the State of Texas is executing tonight. Definitely guilty. Why, he was found guilty by twelve upstanding citizens whose prolonged experience of watching American Gladiators makes them the ideal people to determine guilt or innocence. Go back to sleep."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 7:15 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 4:10 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 151 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 5:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 155 of 205 (661082)
05-01-2012 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by onifre
05-01-2012 5:05 PM


Let's look at a few, then you pick the one's YOU feel are NOT guilty.
What, and disturb your slumber? Never. The government is always right when it kills people --- with the exception of Osama Bin Laden.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 5:05 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 11:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 158 of 205 (661087)
05-02-2012 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by onifre
05-01-2012 11:48 PM


Ehh, I was expecting more.
I posted it while suspended upside down in a tank of live piranhas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by onifre, posted 05-01-2012 11:48 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by onifre, posted 05-02-2012 12:14 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 160 by onifre, posted 05-02-2012 12:15 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 201 of 205 (664842)
06-05-2012 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by fearandloathing
06-05-2012 5:52 PM


Re: Golden Rule
I agree. I also feel that the death penalty is final, no amount of new evidence that may exonerate the defendant matters after the sentence is carried out.
To be precise: it can exonerate him, it just can't resurrect him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by fearandloathing, posted 06-05-2012 5:52 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by fearandloathing, posted 06-05-2012 11:32 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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