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Author Topic:   Why TOE is not accepted
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 140 of 318 (228122)
07-31-2005 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
07-31-2005 10:15 AM


Re: The creationists evolutionists
If you're all so committed to science as the way to truth, why are you so worried about letting the creationists have their say in any public arena whatever? Why wouldn't you just expect that the science would correct the errors?
Being convinced by a weight of evidence requires mental training. You actually have to train yourself to judge a proposition based on the evidence.
A surprising (and disheartening) portion of American society doesn't have this training, and as a result, they judge the validity of positions based on one or more of a number of other criteria, like:
1) How attractive the speaker is
2) How little evidence there is for the proposition (on the assumption that "things are never what they seem"; seriously, there have been creationists on this board who have been convinced that evolution is false because its supported by all the evidence)
3) The degree to which it is consistent with what their mother told them
4) How the proposition makes them feel
5) The enthusiasm with which the proposition is opposed by its detractors (i.e. "there must be something to it if they're so against it.")
etc. All you have to do to observe the truth of this is to watch the American spectacle of politics.
If the public at large was prepared to judge creationism on its true merit, there would be zero opposition to its promulgation. Apparently a slight majority of Americans are not able to do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 07-31-2005 10:15 AM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 143 of 318 (228126)
07-31-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
07-31-2005 2:53 PM


Re: It's about freedom
The point is that if hypotheses always need correcting when there is the real opportunity of testing them and correcting them, how on earth do scientists get away with declaring something proved that happened in the past that has absolutely NO way of being tested and corrected, validated or falsified?
Where do you get this crazy idea that you can't test the past?
Did it occur to you that everything that happens winds up in the past? How could we test anything if we couldn't test the past?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 07-31-2005 2:53 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 168 of 318 (228235)
07-31-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
07-31-2005 7:49 PM


Re: It's about freedom
Such changes as are observable are quite dramatic in some species, but all remain simply variations of the species or Kind.
Well, firstly, there's no such thing as "kind", and moreover, you're wrong. Adaptive changes can and do give rise to new species, not just varying individuals in the old ones. It's observed fact.
Example of variation built into the original squirrel genome.
You're right that variation appears to be built into our genome; in fact, there was so much capability for variation "built into" the first organism that it gave rise to all observed species. Pretty cool.
Doesn't that prove that what produces a new "species" is far from what evolution predicts as that cat has no more potential to evolve whatever.
How do you figure? The cheetah's alleles are no more "hard-wired" than any other species. There's simply less variation, currently, among cheetahs than other cats because all living cheetahs are the decendants of a very limited gene pool, as the result of a near-extinction.
If cheetah populations increase (I don't know if they are right now or not; I rather doubt it as human expansion has been very hard on the big cats) then the variation between individual cheetahs will increase thanks to mutation. If it increases enough, and gene flow is interrupted between two subgroups, a new species of cheetah will arise. Happens all the time.
All potentials already present in the species, brought to the fore by natural selection, or in this case domestic selection and whatever else is done to the genes.
All DNA sequences have the "potential", thanks to mutation, to become any other sequence. As the only thing that separates one species from another, no matter how different, is the sequence of their DNA, all organisms have the capability or potential for rpecisely the sort of long-term change that evolution describes.
What I make of it is that by domestic breeding programs you have selected a genetically vulnerable type with very low genetic variability, which is what most "speciation" amounts to, like the cheetah, all examples of a reduction in genetic potential which works in the opposite direction from what would be necessary for evolution to occur.
Er, no, you can't reduce genetic potential. You can reduce the number of actual alleles, but you can never reduce the number of potential alleles in a gene pool, as mutation bestows DNA with the capability to give rise to literally any allele whatsoever.
It's a different "species" only by definition not in reality.
Shocking truth time: in reality, there are no species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 07-31-2005 7:49 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 171 of 318 (228240)
07-31-2005 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
07-31-2005 7:53 PM


Re: Faith needs to take Research Methods and Stats 101
One would expect exactly the same on the principle of design similarity rather than descent.
No, you wouldn't expect that from common design. When designers design multiple things, each one is unique and suited to its purpose. For instance, here's Dean Kamen, the famous designer:
Here are two of his inventions, a kidney dialysis machine and the Segway electric scooter:
As you can see, they're nothing alike.
Common designers do not result in design similarities, as we can see from my simplistic example. Thus the "common designer" hypothesis (pardon me while I choke on my beverage) cannot be an explanation for the often-counterintuitive similarities between organisms. However, evolution makes predictions that NS+RM will modify structures possessed by an organism's ancestors to fit a new environment, even if a totally new, redesigned structure would be superior. Evolution predicts descent with modification and that's exactly what we observe in the wild.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 07-31-2005 7:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 07-31-2005 8:41 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 180 of 318 (228256)
07-31-2005 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
07-31-2005 8:41 PM


Re: Faith needs to take Research Methods and Stats 101
We're talking about SIMILARITIES, Frog, which are supposed to indicate common descent, but only indicate similar design.
I know exactly what we're talking about, and as I just proved, similiarities (particularly the pseudogenetic similarities that Schraf is referring to) don't indicate anything but common descent.
For the second time, similarity doesn't indicate a common designer.. What exactly is the barrier to your comprehension, here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 07-31-2005 8:41 PM Faith has not replied

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