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Author Topic:   Ken Ham is ... EXPELLED
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 76 (609858)
03-23-2011 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
03-23-2011 7:30 PM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
Dr Adequate writes:
Here.
Answers in Genesis, recognized as one of the strongest advocates for homeschooling in America, has been kicked out of two homeschool conventions where AiG President Ken Ham had been scheduled to speak. In addition, AiG as an exhibitor has also been expelled. [...] At the end of the day, they are censors. They claim to want open debate and discussion, but when we engage them in the battle of ideas, they launch invectives and ad hominem arguments, and then seek to exclude AiG from the debate.
Someone should make a movie about that.
Homeschooling conventions are not necessarily Christian or Biblical. The comprise of all varieties of ideologies, some which would be incompatible with AIG.
I assume all conventions are pretty much like the Washington State WHO. According to Wiki, "Its mission is to serve the diverse interests of home-based education in Washington State. WHO is nonpartisan, nonsectarian, and nondiscriminating in its views of homeschooling and participation in its activities. "

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2011 7:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2011 9:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 7 by subbie, posted 03-23-2011 9:08 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-23-2011 9:44 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 76 (609867)
03-23-2011 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by subbie
03-23-2011 9:08 PM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
subbie writes:
Here is a list of speakers at their next convention. I'm sure you and I would come to opposite conclusions from this list.
How so? In my reading of the whole thing, unless I missed something I only saw the word Christian once and never saw the word, Bible. I did see one couple, one of which was black and one white which debunks Arachophilia's bogus point. .
How so would we come to opposite positions?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by subbie, posted 03-23-2011 9:08 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 76 (609869)
03-23-2011 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Theodoric
03-23-2011 9:58 PM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
Theodoric writes:
You would think buz would at least read the article that was referenced on this before he commented.
Nah, I guess wouldn't think he would.
My comments pertained to homeschooling organizations at large. Evidently some are more diverse and inclusive than others.
Admittedly, I have little knowledge about the organizations, though I know people of diverse ideologies who homeschool, one large family in particular, being more Native American pagan in belief, having no regard for anything Biblical. I've been in their home and we get along better better than most who know them, though we have little in common ideologically.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 03-23-2011 9:58 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 76 (609892)
03-24-2011 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dr Jack
03-24-2011 6:19 AM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
Mr Jack writes:
arachnophilia writes:
when you actually show up to one, you find approximately two groups of people:
  1. people who don't want their kids learning about evolution, and
  2. people who don't want their kids going to school with black people
i say "approximately" because there is some degree of overlap between the two.
Is homeschooling in the US really that bad? The home schooled in the UK certainly also include two other groups:
1. Kids who were badly bullied in mainstream schools
2. Kids who are very clever, don't thrive in state schools and whose parents can't afford to go private.
In two separate studies, home schooled children in America, by and large, score better than public school students.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Dr Jack, posted 03-24-2011 6:19 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 03-24-2011 11:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 76 (609896)
03-24-2011 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
03-24-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
jar writes:
In the US there is a different group, the "Avoidance Group". And yes, it is every bit that bad. If you want an example simply look up "A Beka Books" which is a source for much of the textbooks used by the Christian Cult of Ignorance home schoolers.
Who is this "avoidance group" and how do they score, relative to the stats in my previous message link?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 03-24-2011 9:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 03-24-2011 10:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 76 (609904)
03-24-2011 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
03-24-2011 10:16 AM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
jar writes:
Your link did not provide any information that would allow us to tell which groups their studies included. In addition, the link was yet another of those testimonial links that are just a marketing tool.
You didn't answer my question. I will re-phrase it. How does your "avoidance group" fare relative to scoring vs public schools.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 03-24-2011 10:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 03-24-2011 12:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 29 by jar, posted 03-24-2011 12:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 76 (609905)
03-24-2011 12:12 PM


Question To All On Scoring:
Can anyone cite, by documentation, any home schooling group which scores lower than the public schools in their region?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 76 (609952)
03-24-2011 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
03-24-2011 4:14 PM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
ringo writes:
slevesque writes:
So learning about something, without believing it, is faking it ?
Learning to regurgitate onto a test paper while secretly rejecting the evidence is faking it, yes.
slevesque writes:
And when I study my physics classes at university (which is science), am I ''faking it'' because I think the ToE is false ?
Taking an ignorant, uninformed stand on biology doesn't relate directly to studying physics. However, rejecting one area of science does call into question the honesty of your approach to science in general.
The point of my question (abe: which initiated this segment of the debate) was to determine how home schooled children score compared to public school children.
You are evading the question (abe: at hand). I'll repeat it. Can anyone cite a home schooling group which scores lower than the average public school group of that region. That means any group anywhere.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 03-24-2011 4:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 76 (609954)
03-24-2011 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
03-24-2011 9:42 PM


Re: beliefs and profession
Coyote writes:
Belief gets in the way of learning.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
(See also tagline.)
Only if one lets it. I don't think Slevesque would let it. There's too much at stake for him. It is likely that he scores better than some in his class who do believe in the ToE.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 03-24-2011 9:42 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 76 (609983)
03-25-2011 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by subbie
03-25-2011 12:43 AM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
subbie writes:
But it will be expected of you that if you reject a theory that you provide either evidence undermining it or an alternative theory that better explains the evidence. Can you do that for the ToE?
There is a need for objective people like Slevesque who are knowledgeable and objective about all science PoVs. Not all are stuck on our way or the highway in their class rooms.
My advice to Slevesque is to continue learning all he can about everything. He will be able to teach effectively in both creationist and ToE classes and do it more objectively than someone who has learned only one science view.
If more of our educators, in both camps, were as knowledgeable as Slevesque is going to be when he graduates, perhaps, the best of both PoVs will prevail in the minds of the young impressionable minds of students being taught when they graduate.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by subbie, posted 03-25-2011 12:43 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 76 (610038)
03-25-2011 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
03-25-2011 6:19 PM


Re: Slev will not be a creationist YEC very long
PaulK writes:
He claims that the evidence favours a young Earth, so yes, he is quite definitely a YEC and far more familiar with YEC propaganda than the evidence. You will notice that he often makes quite strong claims about subjects he knows very little of, and that his position is usually based more on prejudice than knowledge or understanding.
All he has to do in order to drop the YEC is to reread Genesis one word by word, thoughtfully, especially verses relating to days one through four. That won't work for ToE, though.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2011 6:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 76 (610040)
03-25-2011 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
03-25-2011 11:28 AM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
ringo writes:
Percy writes:
I don't think there are too many creationists out there "faking" an understanding of evolution.
I agree. Homeschooled students have high scores not because they understand evolution but because they aren't being asked about evolution. If they go on to higher education, they will be asked.
There's always Google, for a refresher or new insight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 11:28 AM ringo has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 76 (610042)
03-25-2011 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
03-25-2011 11:28 AM


Re: Scientific Aspirations
ringo writes:
....... Home schooled students have high scores not because they understand evolution but because they aren't being asked about evolution. If they go on to higher education, they will be asked.
They will know where to go for answers which they have not remembered or known. If they share Sleve's aspirations, they will go on to higher education where they will learn the answers. Likely Sleve's first employment as a scientist, like most professions, will begin where he is able to handle all that comes on his plate.
Not only that, but he will have knowledge acquired from all PoVs.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 11:28 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 9:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 76 (610064)
03-25-2011 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
03-25-2011 9:08 PM


Re: Scientific Aspirations
ringo writes:
The problem is that they won't get the answers that they want to hear. Homeschooling can avoid real science up to the high school level but no post-secondary education is going to support creationism.
They will teach what their employer hires them to teach. In some situations, they may have the opportunity to answer questions of students pertaining alternative views which those students may wonder about.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 9:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 11:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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