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Author Topic:   Does ID follow the scientific method?
Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
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Message 22 of 121 (591844)
11-16-2010 11:19 AM


If we use Behe as an example then it becomes apparent that the IDM is different from the SM.
Behe claims that in order to arrive at the conclusion of design we first rule out natural mechanisms. For example, Behe claims that irreducibly complex systems can not be produced by naturally occuring evolutionary mechanisms described by the theory of evolution. Therefore, intelligent design had to be involved by process of elimination. (note: whether or not irreducibly complex systems can evolve has nothing to do with the actual method that ID is using)
In this method there is no positive evidence in support of the proposed mechanism. Instead, theories are tested by elimination of alternate explanations. This differs dramatically from the scientific method where theories are directly tested using positive evidence. For example, using the SM scientists did not arrive at the theory of relativity just because the only other explanation (Newtonian gravity) failed to explain observations such as the precession in Mercury's orbit. There needed to be positive evidence that the theory of relativity was correct, and that evidence was found in the form of bent starlight in warped spacetime.
It would seem to me that Dawn has been describing this same method as used by Behe, but not used by scientists to construct the theory of relativity. It is implied that "order" can not be produced by non-intelligent processes, therefore order is evidence of design. However, the actual process of design is not tested nor is any attempt made to test for it. Rather, the entire IDM relies on a process of elimination which is different from the SM.

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-16-2010 11:01 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 11-17-2010 8:30 AM Taq has replied

Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 82 of 121 (592261)
11-19-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by marc9000
11-17-2010 8:30 AM


Not rule out, but question naturalistic mechanisms that are highly unlikely, or currently unexplained in certain areas of biology, mainly concerning origins of life.
When using the scientific method (SM) you question the theory that you are putting forward. If Behe is putting ID forward then he needs show how he questioned the mechanisms of ID. He never does that.
Relativity was not supported by the collapse of Newtonian mechanics. Germ theory was not supported by pointing to the lack of evidence for evil spirits. Each of these was supported by testing the theory itself. The ID method (IDM) does not test ID. It claims to test everything else BUT ID. That is a significant depature from the SM.
That they cannot be produced by naturalism could be Behe’s opinion, or any religious individual’s opinion, but the science of ID is justified in observing that it’s highly unlikely that they arose by only naturalism.
As has been pointed out, the conclusions made by Behe or others is secondary to the main argument here. In the IDM the ID claims are not directly tested as they would be in the SM.
If the scientific method has any relationship at all with Occam’s razor, then the ID studies that Behe proposed in Darwin’s Black Box (particularly as described at the end of Chapter 10) unquestionably follow the scientific method.
Occam's Razor states that the explanation with the fewest unevidenced assumptions is the one to go with. ID makes a ton of unevidence assumptions compared to naturalistic explanations. For evolution we have the OBSERVED mechanisms of evolution. No such mechanisms for ID have been put forward. We don't even have any evidence for the designer itself. All of it is assumed without any evidence to support it.
In many instances it is implied that order cannot be studied scientifically if it happened by a supernatural cause, that means there is evidence for order arising from purposeless naturalistic processes. So in some instances, a process of elimination is currently used in practice of the scientific method.
Can you name one of these instances? Can you point to a generally accepted scientific theory that is supported solely by the falsification of competing theories?

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 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 11-17-2010 8:30 AM marc9000 has not replied

Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 83 of 121 (592264)
11-19-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dawn Bertot
11-18-2010 2:20 AM


Re: Finally the Scientific Method of Intelligent Design
Observation, experimentation, evaluation, reproduction and prediction, etc
Then describe for us an experiment that tests ID, and also describe how that experiment equally tests the null hypothesis.
You see thats the problem. Most evolutionist, atleast the hard core ones, assume that thier position involves neither presuppositions or conclusions, but happily and logically they do.
The SM itself requires you to make presuppositions AND THEN TEST THEM. They are called hypotheses. The SM also requires you to presuppose that your hypothesis is wrong and to describe the evidence that one would see if the hypothesis is wrong. This is called the null hypothesis.
So how does one construct the hypothesis and null hypothesis in the IDM, and what types of experiments does one run to test both the hypothesis and null hypothesis?

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 Message 41 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-18-2010 2:20 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 85 of 121 (592270)
11-19-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2010 2:36 AM


Re: Finally the Scientific Method of Intelligent Design
A hypothesis is a process by which you formulate an idea based on a mehtod of common sense, ie, simple observation initially
More importantly, a hypothesis is a TESTABLE and FALSIFIABLE statement that has observational consequences in the real world. So what are the ID hypotheses and how are the both testable and falsifiable. What type of scientific experiments are used to test these hypotheses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2010 2:36 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-20-2010 3:57 AM Taq has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 86 of 121 (592273)
11-19-2010 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2010 2:48 AM


Re: Finally the Scientific Method of Intelligent Design
My simple contention for this thread is that there are no differences and both are science
A contention that you have thus far failed to support. You simply repeat over and over that they are the same without ever attempting to show that they are the same.
I have shown that Behe's method of deductive reasoning diverges from the SM. Setting up false dichotomies and then supporting your theory by the collapse of another is not science, nor is it the SM.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2010 2:48 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 87 of 121 (592277)
11-19-2010 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2010 3:03 AM


Re: One step would be to define what ID isn't
Please demonstrate HOW if I employ all the basics that that is supernatural, religious or different from your method
You have yet to show how those basics are employed in the IDM. You claim they are there, but until you show how they are used you have no argument. Science is an actual activity, it is something you DO. So show us what you specifically do when using the IDM. What are the experiments, and what are the hypotheses that are being tested? What is the null hypothesis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2010 3:03 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
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