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Author Topic:   Does ID follow the scientific method?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 21 of 121 (591830)
11-16-2010 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by dwise1
11-16-2010 10:12 AM


Belief Still Exists
What is the methodology for detecting and determining design in nature?
...
...this methodology for detecting and determining design must comply with the scientific method.
And it must give accurate results or it is useless.
So we need a set of rules for determining whether an object is designed or natural, and those rules must provide accurate results.
We can't just use, "I know design when I see it!"

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2010 10:12 AM dwise1 has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 29 of 121 (591907)
11-16-2010 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dawn Bertot
11-16-2010 10:51 PM


Design vs. non-design
We will be looking at IDs methods and SMs methods
Now, what is off limits I believe, is the conclusions of Macro-evolution and design itself, because both are conclusions, as ICANT was trying to demonstrate in the other thread
What you will be looking at, if you want any credibility at all, is a rule or set of rules to distinguish design from non-design.
If you have no reliable way to distinguish between design and non-design you have nothing.
So lay off the double-talk and tell us how one can reliably determine whether a particular item is designed or not.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-16-2010 10:51 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Admin, posted 11-17-2010 9:15 AM Coyote has not replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 45 of 121 (592072)
11-18-2010 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dawn Bertot
11-18-2010 1:56 AM


Re: Design vs. non-design
Coyote writes:
What you will be looking at, if you want any credibility at all, is a rule or set of rules to distinguish design from non-design.
Wrong, this is not the topic at present. I will demonstrate this down below, in response to another post
From IntellligentDesign.org:
What is intelligent design?
Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system's components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.
Source
Design "theory" has been shown to be wrong in those four examples given. Spectacularly wrong in the case of Behe and irreducible complexity!
So let me repeat, and try not to duck this time: What is your set of rules for distinguishing design from non-design?
You see from the definition of intelligent design given by IntelligentDesign.org that design "theorists" are able to do this, and that this is a critical part of their "scientific" method. As such it is not off topic. I think you just can't answer the question.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-18-2010 1:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 78 of 121 (592244)
11-19-2010 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2010 2:48 AM


Scientific Method of Intelligent Design
[ID]...is me or a scientist evaluating physical properties.
Great! Now we're getting somewhere.
How do you evaluate those physical properties? In other words, how do you differentiate design from non-design?
What is your method for doing this?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2010 2:48 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 81 of 121 (592258)
11-19-2010 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Modulous
11-19-2010 11:37 AM


The real scientific method behind ID
If you want to see the real "scientific" method behind ID, just look at the Discovery Institute--the leading proponent of ID. A while back a fundraising document leaked out and was posted on the internet. It gave away their whole sordid scheme.
From the Wedge Strategy:
Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.
With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of materialism and the Darwinist theory that supports it in the sciences.
Governing Goals
* To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
* To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.
Hmmmm. No mention of hypothesis testing, theory, or any of the other things science uses in it's method, eh?
Sounds more like a religious and political strategy. And funny thing, the Discovery Institute hires mostly lawyers and pr flacks, and runs no laboratories at all.
Hmmmm.
Dawn, want to tell us about the "scientific method" again? I think you missed something.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2010 11:37 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 88 of 121 (592283)
11-19-2010 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Blue Jay
11-19-2010 12:03 PM


Re: Design vs. non-design
Sorry I didn't get to your question earlier.
How do archaeologists determine design vs. non-design?
By lots of research. We study the context in which tools are found in several ways: we observe extant "primitive" societies and their tool-making practices; we examine archaeological sites and the tools found in them; and we examine sites that are known to be natural and see what we find there. The latter might be river beds or rock slides or roads where traffic breaks up rocks. And many of us learn to make stone tools and artifacts as well. Replicative studies are usually very informative!
As part of his research, one of my professors in graduate school had a whole room filled with shelves, all of which were filled with "artifacts" found in streams and other natural deposits. He was able to study the differences between these and known tools and draw up some guidelines for differentiating between the two.
In the case of flaked stone, one of the most important traits to look for is bifacial flaking. That is very common in stone tools and very rare in nature.
Microscopic studies are also pretty useful, particularly use-wear studies. Regular use-wear is not found in nature, but is very common on certain types of stone tools.
And there are always some items that you can't easily tell one way or another. Then analyses of the material and where it originated, or studies of proteins in the pores of the stone, or other types of tests may provide additional clues.
In short, there are methods we can use to determine design from non-design. And we aren't afraid to talk about them.
Added: One fun kind of use-wear has been seen on sandstone and other soft stones. If a reasonably tough brush, such as manzanita, grows near the rock the wind can cause movement of the branches. This can result in the branches creating generally linear lines "drawn" or "carved" into the sandstone. The smoking gun is to find a branch still carving one of the lines.
Edited by Coyote, : addition

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Blue Jay, posted 11-19-2010 12:03 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
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