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Author Topic:   What gives God the right to be "holy"?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 20 of 138 (537284)
11-28-2009 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Larni
11-27-2009 2:02 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
lani writes:
Any way, your point in no way addresses the point that Yahweh gets to decide what is holy by fiat alone. Who says (apart from him, anyway) that Yahweh is holy?
what does holy mean to you? what do you think it means?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Larni, posted 11-27-2009 2:02 PM Larni has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 22 of 138 (537288)
11-28-2009 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
11-27-2009 5:03 AM


cavediver writes:
it consigns A&E and all of their descendents to ETERNAL SUFFERING... And this just because God hsa decided that it is holy, and cannot abide rule-breaking.
the breaking of natural laws has disasterous consequences as im sure you'd agree.
God has made all the laws in the universe, they are there and we must abide by them...
ie, if we dont obey the law of our appetite, we die. And if we ignore the law of gravity and step off a cliff, we die
His moral laws are no different - break them and we die. A&E broke a moral law and they died.
Its not that God 'thinks' he is holy, its that he has created a universe that is goverened by laws. To ignore either the physical laws or the moral laws has serious consequences.
Edited by Peg, : fix quote box

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 11-27-2009 5:03 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 4:27 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 25 of 138 (537304)
11-28-2009 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by cavediver
11-28-2009 4:27 AM


cavediver writes:
Again I ask, why did he choose this. If he had no choice, he is hardly omnipotent and he seems subject to the 'deep magic'. If he choose to make the world this way, then responsibility falls to his choices.
Let me answer you by asking you first to do the following. Choose one of the fundamental laws listed below.
Law of Gravity
Law of Electomagnetism
Law of Procreation
Law of planetary motion
Law of the strong nuclear force
Law of the weak nuclear force
Now remove it from reality, take it away and tell me what would happen if it did not exist.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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 Message 24 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 4:27 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 5:48 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 28 of 138 (537316)
11-28-2009 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by cavediver
11-28-2009 5:48 AM


cavediver writes:
b) If there is an omnipotent creator deity - whatever he wants to happen
in his world, yes. There are no physical laws in his world as there is nothing physical to govern.
but the physical universe is not in his world and it only exists because of the laws that make physical matter possible.
this is why the physical world has laws. they are there to enable physical things to exist. We are physical and our existence is completely dependent upon those laws...they keep us alive.
A&E chose to go contrary to the natural laws of the universe...the result is that it brought about their death... as their offspring, we also live contrary to Gods laws and this is why we die.
So you see, its not because he cant abide by rule breaking...its because WE cant abide by rule breaking.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 5:48 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 6:16 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 30 of 138 (537320)
11-28-2009 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by cavediver
11-28-2009 6:16 AM


cavediver writes:
Who designed the physical world to be the way it is? Who designed it so that when you fall over, there's a chance you will break your neck and spend the rest of your life paralysed?
it matters not who made the physical world
it matters that we live in it according to the laws that govern it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 6:16 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 6:26 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 32 of 138 (537334)
11-28-2009 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by cavediver
11-28-2009 6:26 AM


cavediver writes:
On the contrary, I think it lies at the heart of the matter, especially if you are claiming that sin and the fall are part of this physical world. In Christian theology, people are going to hell because of the way that God set things up. That's all that matters.
you keep steering away from our own personal responsibility toward laws. We were made with intelligence so that we could be responsible for our actions...this is a necessary part of free will. If we are unwilling to take responsibility for ourselves and our actions, then we are making God a scapegoat.
Now this hell business is nothing to do with God. Its not a place where conscious people exist...its the grave of mankind. Its the place of inactivity...its the place of the dead.
We may both go there but i can assure you we wont be conscious of being there...and thats not Gods fault either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 6:26 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 7:23 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 34 of 138 (537338)
11-28-2009 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by cavediver
11-28-2009 7:23 AM


cavediver writes:
What I am asking is why should God have a perfect standard?
for the same reason that universal laws cannot be tampered with...we need them to exist.
cavediver writes:
And why should we be judged against it?
the truth is, we are not judged against it. God has provided us a means of return thru the death of his son. Jesus has in effect, died in our place. He has presented his death to God and paid the price for our imperfection for us.
This is why we are told that all those who excersize faith in Jesus will not have their sin held against them. We can ask for, and recieved, forgiveness rather then have to pay the price for sin, namely death.
cavediver writes:
Eve exercised her freewill and the rest of humanity is paying the price for it. But it was God's afront to her choice that is the reason behind the fall and the suffering.
hey, now your're placing the blame directly on eve. Perhaps you dont realise it but the Apostle Paul put the blame on Adam because as he said "Eve was thoroughly decieved, but the man was not decieved"
Really, the reason for our fall was because of inherited traits...sin is a genetic flaw which is why we all have it...but its a flaw that God has promised to remove.
cavediver writes:
It's very very odd being on the outside now, looking back in. It took me to stop being a Christian to recognise you as a Christian. It's a strange world...
awww thats sweet. We are still accused of being a cult...but hey, if we were a cult we wouldnt be knocking on people doors and we wouldnt have all our meetings open to the public would we.
it just goes to show how fragmented christianity has become...its amazing to think that it started off as one small group of 12 men in palestine.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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 Message 33 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 7:23 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2009 10:54 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 40 of 138 (537369)
11-28-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by cavediver
11-28-2009 9:07 AM


cavediver writes:
Yep, but the point of this thread is - why is there any wrath to begin with?
i dont think there is wrath
i think there is a lot of sadness and pity for us... do you think he would have given up his dearest son if he felt angry and wrathful?
remember the words of John 3:16
"for God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son in order that everyone excersizing faith in him, might not be destroyed but have everlasting life"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by cavediver, posted 11-28-2009 9:07 AM cavediver has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 46 of 138 (537457)
11-28-2009 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by bluescat48
11-28-2009 10:54 AM


bluescat48 writes:
That is do to the fact that humans are in control of religion and human greed & prejudice reigns.
thats very true and infact Jesus and the apostles all indicated that it would eventuate that way, but it doesnt mean that true christianity would not exist in the world... it would just make it harder to find.

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 Message 42 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2009 10:54 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
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