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Author Topic:   What gives God the right to be "holy"?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 1 of 138 (537133)
11-27-2009 5:03 AM


It is a regular occurance in debates here at EvC that non-Christians quiz Christians on the reasons that God has for hell. The reasons often track back to this concept of God being holy - here's some recent quotes by Dr Sing:
{God} needed someone holy, as holy as himself to pay for you sins.
The price that God set for sin was holy blood
So holy is the God of the Bible that He will not tolerate even a single sin
What we have here is an "ultimate" conciousness that decides that it is "holy". It gives its newly created beings free-will, and some rules. A rule gets broken, and because this ultimate being has decided that it is "holy" and rule-breaking is something that cannot be tolerated, its entire creation will suffer. Not content with just wiping out his creation for this perceived slight against its own self-determined holiness, it consigns A&E and all of their descendents to ETERNAL SUFFERING... And this just because God hsa decided that it is holy, and cannot abide rule-breaking.
The fact is that God didn't suddenly discover itself holy - if it wants to take on such a mantle, then fair enough, but it is a choice. And it is this choice that leads to hell and eternal suffering.
Faith and Belief please...

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Message 2 of 138 (537141)
11-27-2009 6:48 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the What gives God the right to be "holy"? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 3 of 138 (537142)
11-27-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
11-27-2009 5:03 AM


You could compare Yahweh with a autocratic Dungeon Master in D&D where the saying goes 'my world, my way'.
Of course when you get a bad DM you can leave the game and find someone else who is more amiable.
But would Yahweh let us do that? Obviously not and this gets to your point. Yahweh gets to to what Yahweh wants simply through dint of the fact Yahweh has the biggest god damn stick in the universe.
Might makes right to the sons of Abraham, I fear.
Edited by Larni, : Spellingk

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 4 of 138 (537152)
11-27-2009 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
11-27-2009 5:03 AM


We all have a choice!
It has never made any sense to me that God would give us free-will and then punish us for using that free-will.
But you raise a good point because I'd never really considered that of course God has free-will too.
So, we have free-will and God has free-will. So in that respect we are equal and God has no superiority to declare itself "holy" any more than we do.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 5 of 138 (537191)
11-27-2009 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
11-27-2009 5:03 AM


Sounds strangly familiar
What we have here is an "ultimate" conciousness that decides that it is "holy". It gives its newly created beings free-will, and some rules. A rule gets broken, and because this ultimate being has decided that it is "holy" and rule-breaking is something that cannot be tolerated, its entire creation will suffer. Not content with just wiping out his creation for this perceived slight against its own self-determined holiness, it consigns A&E and all of their descendents to ETERNAL SUFFERING... And this just because God hsa decided that it is holy, and cannot abide rule-breaking.
The fact is that God didn't suddenly discover itself holy - if it wants to take on such a mantle, then fair enough, but it is a choice. And it is this choice that leads to hell and eternal suffering.
Your post comes across to me as portraying God as a despot, an arbitrary tyrant. God's character and motives are greatly suspicious to your analysis. He is seen as out to limit man from man's best existence, to cramp man in, keep man down, and generally cheat man.
This is how your analysis comes across to me.
Now I have a problem. How do I know that you are not working for the same evil forces that the serpent in Genesis worked for? Your input is quite reminicient of this deceiving serpent's attack on God's character.
" .... Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden? ... You shall not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes,and that the tree was to be desired to make oneself wise, she took of it and ate ..." (See Gen. 3:3-6)
The tone seems very much the same. Question God's word. Then go on to question God's character and God's motives. God is a arbitrary despot and tyrant not loving man or caring for man's best interest.
How do I know that your challenges are not simply employments of the same evil anti-God forces ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 6 of 138 (537193)
11-27-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jaywill
11-27-2009 1:36 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
How do I know that your challenges are not simply employments of the same evil anti-God forces ?
What if he is right in his assessment? You can't say that Cavediver is wrong with absolute certainty, can you?
Any way, your point in no way addresses the point that Yahweh gets to decide what is holy by fiat alone. Who says (apart from him, anyway) that Yahweh is holy?

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 7 of 138 (537197)
11-27-2009 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jaywill
11-27-2009 1:36 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
How do I know that your challenges are not simply employments of the same evil anti-God forces ?
Uh-uh, I went too far... ah well, tiz a fair cop - ya got me - tiz me, Old Nick, up to me'old tricks. Now, who wants a life of wine, women -or men if you so prefer - and debauchery? Mephisto, have you got that quill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 11-27-2009 1:36 PM jaywill has replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 8 of 138 (537202)
11-27-2009 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by cavediver
11-27-2009 2:15 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
Uh-uh, I went too far... ah well, tiz a fair cop - ya got me - tiz me, Old Nick, up to me'old tricks. Now, who wants a life of wine, women -or men if you so prefer - and debauchery? Mephisto, have you got that quill?
I am still a little concerned.
You see the tree forbidden was not simply the tree of the knowledge of evil, as in indulgence in alchohol, greedy sex, and debauchery. It was not simply the tree of gambling, stealing, lying, and other obvious bad behaviors.
It was the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil. Knowledge of Good and evil were on the same tree. In other words even man's philosophy, good deeds, and ethical behavior could also be in rebellion to God.
So the temptation is much more subtle than "wine, women, and debauchary".
Man could also use lofty philosophy to revolt against God as well.
Now I will say one matter about the holiness of God. I think holiness of God is way of saying God is distinct from all other things that exist. Nothing is in the same class as He. He is different from all things, all things.
To be fair, the Bible does show that some things dedicated or set aside for His purpose are also discribed as holy - ie, holy angels, holy apostles and prophets.
But we have this passage "You alone are holy" (Rev. 15:4).
God alone is distinct from all other things which exist. A spiritual beauty and purity His is by His very nature. He alone is holy. For man to become holy God must set man aside for Himself and His purpose, fristly. Then God must infuse man with His element that man is imparted with the life of God and thereby is subjectively made holy. This is by the Holy Spirit.
But to the issue, God's authority to pronounce or judge holiness is because this flows out what He Himself is from eternity. Where others cannot partake of His holiness there is no ground for judgment. There is ground for judgment only where there can be rejection and rebellion against God's action to make you holy like Himself.
He alone is holy as the source of this characteristic. His Holy Spirit is His reaching man to impart this holiness into man to make man holy.
It is not simply that Adam disobeyed a rule. He ate something which got into his being. Something of God's enemy, Satan, entered into man's being at the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The very good man, the neutral man, move out from a position of neutrality and was saturated with something of the Satanic nature. Man, instead of being made holy from eating the of life, became Satanified by taking a foreign evil element into his being.
Eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil prohibited him from partaking of the tree of the divine life of God which would have constituted the neutral man holy as God's is holy:
"And Jehovah God said, Behold the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever - ... Therefore Jehovah God snet him forth from the garden of Eden ... So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life" ( Gen. 3:22-24)
This of course is not the end of the Bible. How God brings man back to the life of God and the holiness of God is the story of salvation. The other books reveal God's actions to overcome every imaginable obstacle to bring man back to Himself. His love is relentless. His wisdom is unsearchable. And His skill to recover man to Himself far transcends anything we could devise.
I think I would spend a proportionate amount of time to study what God in His love and faithfulness does to save man and make the redeemed sons of God holy like Himself.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 11-27-2009 2:53 PM jaywill has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 138 (537203)
11-27-2009 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jaywill
11-27-2009 2:49 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
I think I would spend a proportionate amount of time to study what God in His love and faithfulness does to save man and make the redeemed sons of God holy like Himself.
But the point is that Yahweh dictated that Man need be redeemed. This was a pointless and tyrannical act, no?

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 Message 8 by jaywill, posted 11-27-2009 2:49 PM jaywill has replied

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 10 of 138 (537205)
11-27-2009 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jaywill
11-27-2009 1:36 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
How do I know that you are not working for the same evil forces
How do we know that you aren't? Sure, you talk all sugar and spice and everything nice, but you know
Second Corinthians 11:14,15 writes:
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
The Inquisitors all talked real pretty too, and had a verse for every occasion; but they are praying for icewater now, ain't they? So I guess we will have to judge you by your fruits. Assuming you lay some out here, rather than just shaking your finger with a suspicious glare
As for questioning God's motives and character, why shouldn't we? Jeremiah does it all the time.
Jeremiah 15:17,18 writes:
I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.
Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, [which] refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, [and as] waters [that] fail?
He not only doesn't even discourage it, he seems to get such a kick out of it that he's willing to give over a lot of poor Job's livestock and children just to set the fight up; though he does warn us to be sure we are familiar with the material before we give him a go
Job 41:1 writes:
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?
If you manage to put up a decent fight all night long, he might reward you in a totally disproportionate manner
Genesis 32:24 writes:
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 11-27-2009 1:36 PM jaywill has replied

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


(1)
Message 11 of 138 (537212)
11-27-2009 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
11-27-2009 5:03 AM


This is a very theological question.
I think the answer would be that God didn't decide to be holy, but that he iss holy. In the same way that he doesn't 'decide' to be righteous, or love, or truth, etc. This is simply how he is. And this is how he presents himself in the Bible.
I never heard of any verse which said that God 'decided' to be holy. Only verses that said that he is.
Of course, you are spot on that hell is the consequence of his holiness. But it is the because of what he is, not what he decided. If it really was a choice on his part to send us there, why would he ever have to become a man, and suffer and be humiliated and ultimately die. It makes no sense at all, since all he could have done was change his mind instead of having the crap beat out of himself ... (Well, his son. But ya know. Trinity and all)

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 12 of 138 (537225)
11-27-2009 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Larni
11-27-2009 2:53 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
But the point is that Yahweh dictated that Man need be redeemed. This was a pointless and tyrannical act, no?
Pointless ?
Redemption is to purchase. It is a legal transaction. In this case God purchases back man. God pays a price to purchase man back for Himself.
From what does God purchase man? Man has fallen under the law of God. Originally the created man was not in the custody of the law of God. When man became united with the enemy of God he came under the custody of God's law.
The Redemption was the purchase of man out from under the righteous law of God. It was the legal price paid to God's law which redeems man back to God. Why is it pointless for God to desire to purchase man back from a curse?
"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, Cursed is every one hanging on a tree. " (Gal. 3:13a)
I don't see this as pointless. For God to seek and recover what He loves which has been lost, pointless? If He didn't care for His creation He could just let us perish under the curse of the law. Man can never fulfill it now that he has become Satanified.
If there is no redemption there certainly is no love. If there is no redemption there is no completion of God's eternal purpose in creating man in the first place. Why should God simply give up His eternal purpose for man and leave man lost, to perish under the penalty of His law?
Tyranical ?
The Savior God was incarnated and came to "serve" man:
"And whoever wants to be first among you shall be your slave; Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Matt. 20:27,28)
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)
This Eternal Person has many facets. He is multifaceted and rich in content, characteristics, and expressions. Why not? He is the uncreated Life which is the Source of all lives.
And one aspect of Him is that He came to "serve" us by giving His incarnated life up as a ransom in death on a cross to redeem us. This was a service. And if you are not thankful for it many of us are.
You have the wrong enemy. God is King. But He is not the despot or the tyrant. He is the God who became a man and laid down His life to redeem us out from under the curse of the just and righteous law that we became property us when we were joined to the opposition party.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 13 of 138 (537228)
11-27-2009 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Iblis
11-27-2009 2:56 PM


Re: Sounds strangly familiar
How do we know that you aren't? Sure, you talk all sugar and spice and everything nice, but you know
You would not know unless you line up what I say with the revelation of God in the Boble. And I suggest strongly that you do that.
I want no one just to take my word for it without checking with the word of God.
Furthermore, I see no suger and spice and everything nice here. Not everyone is going to accept redemption. They will perish.
And this forgiveness is not sugar and spice. It is not a sentimental forgiveness. It is not God saying "Let's just forget about your guilty sins. I know you didn't mean it."
No indeed. This redemption is that because one believes in the Son of God justice was imputed on his behalf on the cross. God has not overlooked my sins. I was judged on the cross on Calvary. This is not sugar and spice. The Son of God carried up my sins in His body unto the cross. There the wrath of God caused divine justice to be imputed on Him in my place.
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. God forgives but it because judgment has been rendered, justice has been served, the penalty has been enacted on the sinner's behalf. This cost God a tremendous amount which we cannot fully appreciate even unto eternity.
Everything was not nice to the Savior Jesus who received the judgment of God for my transgressions, that I might be saved.
Second Corinthians 11:14,15 writes:
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
That's right.
The Inquisitors all talked real pretty too, and had a verse for every occasion; but they are praying for icewater now, ain't they? So I guess we will have to judge you by your fruits. Assuming you lay some out here, rather than just shaking your finger with a suspicious glare
I insist that you judge me by fruits. I welcome you to examine what I wrote in the light of the Bible too.
One test could be whether what I write. Does it exalt Christ or does it tend to make you want to get along without Him ?
I don't claim to be perfected. If you would like to wait until a perfect Christian comes along go ahead. You may have a long wait. Most of us are still a work in progress.
But if you would rather receive an answer from a more mature and more perfected Christian you have that right. Me, I took a little from this believer and a little from that believer until I met Jesus for myself.
As for questioning God's motives and character, why shouldn't we? Jeremiah does it all the time.
Jeremiah 15:17,18 writes:
I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.
Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, [which] refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, [and as] waters [that] fail?
Good verse. Equal time for the doubters. Sure?
You'll find more passages like that in the book of Job.
I myself question God in prayer sometimes. I don't think God ever rejects an honest prayer. So by all means, pour out your heart to God in questionings.
It is good to go out to a field where you can speak out without fear of disturbing anyone. Then you can pour out your heart to God in questions as in many many Psalms of David.
I have found that Christ is the answer to all my questionings. His peace passes all understanding. Just to meet Him and to be in His presence answers about everything. The divine Peace is the answer that deeply puts the heart at rest.
He not only doesn't even discourage it, he seems to get such a kick out of it that he's willing to give over a lot of poor Job's livestock and children just to set the fight up; though he does warn us to be sure we are familiar with the material before we give him a go
I think your point can also be viewed in the story of Jacob wrestling with God.
Job 41:1 writes:
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?
If you manage to put up a decent fight all night long, he might reward you in a totally disproportionate manner
Very good. And I must add that even the Son of God questioned in the hour He bore the sins of the world:
"My God, my God, WHY have you forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:41)
This was the ultimate in God questioning the Almighty. Wonderful!
As He carried up my sins in His body to bear the judgment upon them in a horror that we can never know, He cried out as He was forsaken by the Father, that He might redeem me, that He might redeem you.
Remember that the Son of God questioned why He had to be forsaken by the Father as He bore your sins that you could be saved.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 14 of 138 (537231)
11-27-2009 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
11-27-2009 5:03 AM


I'm going to argue with you.
I can't defend Yahweh Cloudrider's actions, however. I'm forced to be pedantic.
Holiness is merely a measure of proximity to Yahweh.
That which is not holy - or sacred - is profane (literally meaning before the temple, pro- -fane, which is probably better translated to outside of the temple). A holy thing or place is just one that has been separated from the mundane or profane for use in divine rituals or the like and it could be 'desecrated' (or de seperated) by contact with mundane, profane or sometimes referred to as 'impure' or 'unclean' things. It was usually therefore placed in the Temple where it could be spatially close to Yahweh the Undecided, in the Holy of Holies where only the Aaronite priests could go.
Yahweh then, is a singularity of holiness. As per Leviticus 11, the children of Israel are instructed to be holy because of this.
The question isn't, I think, "What gives God the right to be 'holy'?" any more than "What gives light the right to travel at approx 300,000 kms-1?" is a right question to ask. The real question is - if holiness is about aping Yahweh "The Butcher" Plaguebearer and trying to be as close to him as possible...why would anyone else want to be holy, and proudly proclaim their quest?
Erm - but that probably wasn't really pertinent to your point.

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 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 11-27-2009 5:03 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by iano, posted 11-27-2009 8:05 PM Modulous has replied
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 138 (537238)
11-27-2009 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
11-27-2009 7:23 PM


Modulous writes:
The question isn't, I think, "What gives God the right to be 'holy'?" any more than "What gives light the right to travel at approx 300,000 kms-1?" is a right question to ask. The real question is - if holiness is about aping Yahweh "The Butcher" Plaguebearer and trying to be as close to him as possible...why would anyone else want to be holy, and proudly proclaim their quest?
One reason might be the conviction that God expressing his wrath against that which is evil is a good thing. The focus in that case is less on his action and more on the object of his wrath. If being convinced that sin in all it's forms and manifestations is throughly ugly then one has reason to take pride in being associated with the source of that which is anti-sin.
It's all comes down to your view on sin I suppose. If having no problem in principle with that which you yourself consider evil being punished, then your "butcher/plaguebearer" slur is rendered a toothless attack.
Your knowing this already, yet partaking in the slur, is indicative of God-hatred - something predicted as forming the nature of the lost.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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