EvC Forum: Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator?

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Topic: Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator?

New Cat's Eye

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Message 9 of 82 (536209)
11-20-2009 12:35 PM

Reply to: Message 5 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-20-2009 11:35 AM

Re: POST MODIFIED

that is supposed to be perfect (such as God of the Bible)

From where did you get the idea that the God of the Bible is supposed to be perfect?

A Psalm or something? Or not even from the Bible at all?

The god of the Old Testament is obviously not perfect, and I don't recall Jesus talking about god being perfect. Paul might have said it though.

So where?

The point I am making is that it is so easy to make up a creator that is better than the "gods of antiquity" that it means that any "god of antiquity" that is supposed to be perfect (such as God of the Bible) must have been made up itself.

How's that follow? Can you walk me throught the logic?

How does your capability of making up a better god necessitate that previous gods were made up?

This message is a reply to:
	Message 5 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 11:35 AM		Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 12:59 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 11 of 82 (536219)
11-20-2009 1:27 PM

Reply to: Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-20-2009 12:59 PM

From hundreds of Christian preachers - and I've heard Muslims claim the same about their god. Are you seriously claiming you've never heard anyone say that?

No, I'm not claiming that. I was inquiring about were YOU got the idea so I knew where you where comming from and how you wanted the discusison to unfold. If you got the idea from the Bible then I'd be talking about that.

I'm not a biblical scholar, but I'm fairly sure that the Bible refers to God being perfect (or words to that effect).

Heh, reminds me of: "I'm no biologist, but I'm sure evolution is random."

Maybe someone can find such quotes.

I did find one. Matt 5:48:

quote:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Did I claim it said so in the Bible anyway? Not all claims made about God are in the Bible. Who made up the rule that the Bible is the only source of information on God?

You wrote:

quote:
that is supposed to be perfect (such as God of the Bible)

I take the "God of the Bible" to mean how the Bible describes God, not what preachers say what the Bible describes God as.

Not all claims made about God are in the Bible. Who made up the rule that the Bible is the only source of information on God?

The rules, aka assumptions, are made by the OP. If you don't want to limit this to the Bible then we don't have to.

Can you walk me throught the logic? How does your capability of making up a better god necessitate that previous gods were made up?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "previous" gods?

You were talking about gods of antiquity, they came before your gods in the OP, so they were before them, or "previous".

Anyway, what is a god if it isn't some kind of perfect, or at least "super", being? If a god/creator is so superior to us, why doesn't it conduct itself in a manner that is far superior to anything we can imagine?

Well if we define god as perfect then he actually is superior to anything you can imagine.

If an idiot like me can so easily see how a god/creator can improve itself, it is obvious that it isn't a super being at all, because it would have ensured it was always at least as good as I could ever imagine.

But you are assuming that creating the world in 4 days instead of 6 is better. That not necessarily true.

Basically, all your doing is decribing a way that your god could have done things diferently and then claiming that your differences are better so therefore the Bible god isn't perfect anymore. You really haven't supported how your differences are better though. Also, if we assume that Bible God is, in fact, perfect, then his way has to be the better of the ways rather than the way that you imagined.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 12:59 PM		Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 2:06 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 17 of 82 (536234)
11-20-2009 2:40 PM

Reply to: Message 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-20-2009 2:06 PM

But something the Bible is undoubtedly clear on is that people should believe in God, should worship God, should obey God. Those points are rammed home again and again. How, then, is does a "better" or "perfect" God allow his existence and his doctrine to be disputable? If he thinks it is better for us not to believe in him, not to worship him, not to obey him, why does he keep telling us to believe in him, worship him and obey him? That doesn't make any logical, objective sense!

That's a fairly common question... why doesn't god just prove he exists and instead rely on faith?

There's threads on that question on this site here and here.

I believe that if god proved he exists then we'd effectively be turned into automatons that believe in him by default. For some reason he saw it important for us to be able to not know that he exists and be able to not believe that he exists. I guess that way, those that do believe will be special.

I've suggested some simple ways in which he could make things easier for us to do what he wants. Almost anyone could do so. This alleged creator called God is less intelligent than the average human being! Therefore, he is totally incredible as any kind of divine super-being/creator.

I'm not convinced that your ability to imagine a way in which god could have done things differently, and be labelled as better, has anything to do at all with how intelligent or capable god is.

A big "if". You assume that he exists and his way is perfect if you want. I won't for the reasons stated above. A better creator would not have made it difficult to understand things if it were important to understand them.

Your certainly free to hold that opinion. Do you actually want to discuss if your opinion has any merit?

It seems to me that you don't really care to discuss it and would rather just have some fun with the christians. But you can prove me wrong.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 2:06 PM		Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 20 by onifre, posted 11-20-2009 5:06 PM	New Cat's Eye has not replied
	Message 23 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-21-2009 3:35 PM	New Cat's Eye has not replied

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