Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator?
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 1 of 82 (535842)
11-18-2009 11:09 AM


I’m talking about God, of course.
Why do so many creationists latch on to God as being the creator of the universe, claiming he is the perfect, ultimate, highest form of being?
There are an infinite number of other creators that are better than God. Therefore, it does not make any sense to claim that God is the ultimate being that created the universe.
Obviously, I don’t have time to list the infinite number of better creators, so I will give just a few examples:
Omagad — he did absolutely everything that God did, except he was able to create the Earth in only 4 days, not 6.
Lordilordi — he did absolutely everything that God and Omagad did, except he was able to create the Earth in only 2 days. And he didn’t even need a rest afterwards.
Halleebaluya — did absolutely everything that Omagad did, except he was able to sort out certain miscreants by reasoning with them in a civilised manner, rather than commit acts of genocide.
Wotalototoss — did absolutely everything that Halleebaluya did, except he made it clear that, not only was it was never acceptable to rape homosexuals, it was also never acceptable to rape women.
Sensatlast — he did everything that Wotalototoss did, except he had a son or daughter born into every generation, so that his existence was clear and indisputable to everyone and there would never be any more time wasted in arguments.
Betasense — he did everything that Sensatlast did, except he also had his angels flying around constantly, just to be doubly sure the message got through. It also had the unexpected benefit of helping the angels lose weight.
Morthansense — the weight loss benefit was not unexpected to him, he KNEW it would happen. It was a deliberate part of his plan.
You get the general idea. And these are just the ones that are only just a tiny bit better than God. There’s an infinite number of others, like Huf, who are so much better they make all these look ridiculous.
So, how can God be seriously considered as candidate for the perfect, ultimate being that created the Universe!
EDITED NOTE: It may help appreciate the point I'm making by reading messages 4 & 5 between Percy & myself.
Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : Better expression!
Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : Requested by Admin.
Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : CLARITY!?!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 11-20-2009 7:50 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 11-20-2009 12:21 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied
 Message 13 by slevesque, posted 11-20-2009 2:04 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied
 Message 27 by purpledawn, posted 11-22-2009 6:51 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 82 (536169)
11-20-2009 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-18-2009 11:09 AM


The supporting arguments for God's imperfection and for creators better than God are too brief and too weak. If you decide to modify your opening post then post a short note here when you're done and I'll take another look.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-18-2009 11:09 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 9:40 AM Admin has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 3 of 82 (536178)
11-20-2009 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
11-20-2009 7:50 AM


POST MODIFIED
Hi Percy
Sorry my original post was too brief. I've modified my post by inserting a lot of examples. I hope this is sufficient!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 11-20-2009 7:50 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 11-20-2009 10:13 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 82 (536184)
11-20-2009 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-20-2009 9:40 AM


Re: POST MODIFIED
Well now I see a different problem - I assumed Huf was a God of antiquity that I hadn't heard of, but now it appears you're just making gods up. Is your point that not only is God made up, but its possible to make up even better Gods? That doesn't seem like enough for a discussion thread. Maybe you'd like a thread discussing whether God is real or a product of human imagination?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 9:40 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 11:35 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 5 of 82 (536199)
11-20-2009 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
11-20-2009 10:13 AM


Re: POST MODIFIED
I assumed Huf was a God of antiquity that I hadn't heard of, now it appears you're just making gods up
Making gods up!!! Whoever heard of such a thing?
You seem to imply that there is something wrong with my list of creators, that they are unequal to the "gods of antiquity". How can they be considered unequal if they are closer to being perfect?
The point I am making is that it is so easy to make up a creator that is better than the "gods of antiquity" that it means that any "god of antiquity" that is supposed to be perfect (such as God of the Bible) must have been made up itself.
Certainly, at least, God can't be both the creator and the perfect, ultimate being.
I think that is a simple and logical argument. If it can't lead to a discussion, I would say that means it's accepted and nobody believes in God anymore!
Can we run with it or would you like me to change the original post again? No worries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 11-20-2009 10:13 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2009 12:35 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 82 (536201)
11-20-2009 11:41 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 82 (536207)
11-20-2009 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-18-2009 11:09 AM


Holy Writings
quote:
There are an infinite number of other creators that are better than God. Therefore, it does not make any sense to claim that God is the ultimate being that created the universe.
Obviously, I don’t have time to list the infinite number of better creators, so I will give just a few examples:
Please provide links to the holy writings or creation stories associated with these creators you listed?
Provide support for their qualifications.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-18-2009 11:09 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 12:32 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 8 of 82 (536208)
11-20-2009 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
11-20-2009 12:21 PM


Re: Holy Writings
Please provide links to the holy writings or creation stories associated with these creators you listed?
My first post is the "holy writings". Below is a link, or you can find it just as simply by scrolling up the page.
EvC Forum: Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator?
I don't know what you mean by "support" or "qualifications".
I think you've missed the point. Read message 5.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 11-20-2009 12:21 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 11-20-2009 1:51 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 9 of 82 (536209)
11-20-2009 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-20-2009 11:35 AM


Re: POST MODIFIED
that is supposed to be perfect (such as God of the Bible)
From where did you get the idea that the God of the Bible is supposed to be perfect?
A Psalm or something? Or not even from the Bible at all?
The god of the Old Testament is obviously not perfect, and I don't recall Jesus talking about god being perfect. Paul might have said it though.
So where?
The point I am making is that it is so easy to make up a creator that is better than the "gods of antiquity" that it means that any "god of antiquity" that is supposed to be perfect (such as God of the Bible) must have been made up itself.
How's that follow? Can you walk me throught the logic?
How does your capability of making up a better god necessitate that previous gods were made up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 11:35 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 10 of 82 (536215)
11-20-2009 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
11-20-2009 12:35 PM


Re: POST MODIFIED
From where did you get the idea that the God of the Bible is supposed to be perfect?
From hundreds of Christian preachers - and I've heard Muslims claim the same about their god. Are you seriously claiming you've never heard anyone say that? I'm not a biblical scholar, but I'm fairly sure that the Bible refers to God being perfect (or words to that effect). Maybe someone can find such quotes. Did I claim it said so in the Bible anyway? Not all claims made about God are in the Bible. Who made up the rule that the Bible is the only source of information on God?
The god of the Old Testament is obviously not perfect
.
Agreed. Is he not the same god as the one in the New Testament? If not, what is the Old Testament doing in the Christian bible?
Can you walk me throught the logic? How does your capability of making up a better god necessitate that previous gods were made up?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "previous" gods? Anyway, what is a god if it isn't some kind of perfect, or at least "super", being? If a god/creator is so superior to us, why doesn't it conduct itself in a manner that is far superior to anything we can imagine? If an idiot like me can so easily see how a god/creator can improve itself, it is obvious that it isn't a super being at all, because it would have ensured it was always at least as good as I could ever imagine. It's obvious someone even more stupid than me must have made it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2009 12:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2009 1:27 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 11 of 82 (536219)
11-20-2009 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-20-2009 12:59 PM


From hundreds of Christian preachers - and I've heard Muslims claim the same about their god. Are you seriously claiming you've never heard anyone say that?
No, I'm not claiming that. I was inquiring about were YOU got the idea so I knew where you where comming from and how you wanted the discusison to unfold. If you got the idea from the Bible then I'd be talking about that.
I'm not a biblical scholar, but I'm fairly sure that the Bible refers to God being perfect (or words to that effect).
Heh, reminds me of: "I'm no biologist, but I'm sure evolution is random."
Maybe someone can find such quotes.
I did find one. Matt 5:48:
quote:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Did I claim it said so in the Bible anyway? Not all claims made about God are in the Bible. Who made up the rule that the Bible is the only source of information on God?
You wrote:
quote:
that is supposed to be perfect (such as God of the Bible)
I take the "God of the Bible" to mean how the Bible describes God, not what preachers say what the Bible describes God as.
Not all claims made about God are in the Bible. Who made up the rule that the Bible is the only source of information on God?
The rules, aka assumptions, are made by the OP. If you don't want to limit this to the Bible then we don't have to.
Can you walk me throught the logic? How does your capability of making up a better god necessitate that previous gods were made up?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "previous" gods?
You were talking about gods of antiquity, they came before your gods in the OP, so they were before them, or "previous".
Anyway, what is a god if it isn't some kind of perfect, or at least "super", being? If a god/creator is so superior to us, why doesn't it conduct itself in a manner that is far superior to anything we can imagine?
Well if we define god as perfect then he actually is superior to anything you can imagine.
If an idiot like me can so easily see how a god/creator can improve itself, it is obvious that it isn't a super being at all, because it would have ensured it was always at least as good as I could ever imagine.
But you are assuming that creating the world in 4 days instead of 6 is better. That not necessarily true.
Basically, all your doing is decribing a way that your god could have done things diferently and then claiming that your differences are better so therefore the Bible god isn't perfect anymore. You really haven't supported how your differences are better though. Also, if we assume that Bible God is, in fact, perfect, then his way has to be the better of the ways rather than the way that you imagined.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 12:59 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 2:06 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 82 (536223)
11-20-2009 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-20-2009 12:32 PM


Re: Holy Writings
quote:
My first post is the "holy writings". Below is a link, or you can find it just as simply by scrolling up the page.
EvC Forum: Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator?
I don't know what you mean by "support" or "qualifications".
I think you've missed the point. Read message 5.
Please provide links to the holy writings or creation stories associated with these creators you listed?
My first post is the "holy writings". Below is a link, or you can find it just as simply by scrolling up the page.
EvC Forum: Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator?
I don't know what you mean by "support" or "qualifications".
I think you've missed the point. Read message 5.
No, I didn't miss the point. You think the ancients pulled gods out of their ass. They didn't, but you did and poorly.
They didn't just make up a creator our of thin air. There was a basis for how gods came to be. People based gods on the world around them.
Your gods have only existed since 11:09 AM on November 18, 2009. The God of the Bible has been around for thousands of years.
Since the God of the Bible already created Earth thousands of years ago, none of your gods could have created it. You have no evidence for anything else you claim your gods have done.
My point is that you don't understand why the people wrote the way they did about their God and why God changed as people and civilization change.
You base God's perfection on hearsay. You don't care to study the Bible (and apparently don't learn from discussions) to really understand what the writings were telling the people of the time, but want to debate with no support for what you write.
So if you really want to know why creationists have faith in the God of the Bible as opposed to any another god, I suggest you actually chose a god that still has followers today.
If you're really wanting to point out that gods are a product of human imagination, you did a poor job. Your opening post only shows that your gods are a product of human imagination. Try finding some actual support for your position.
The other problem is that we have the Bible and other written works as reference information on the Christian God. Your gods have nothing we can reference, no foundation. You can make the backstory up as we go along.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 12:32 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 2:17 PM purpledawn has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 13 of 82 (536224)
11-20-2009 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-18-2009 11:09 AM


Obvious Troll is obvious
Besides I agree with CS here, you didn't define ''perfect''. I know that in greek the word aken for ''perfect'' (as in the quote CS found) had a meaning similar to ''mature'' or ''complete''.
You seem to be saying, ''creating the world in 4 days is better than in 6, and so my 4-day creator is closer to perfection than the 6-day creator''.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-18-2009 11:09 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-20-2009 2:31 PM slevesque has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 14 of 82 (536225)
11-20-2009 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
11-20-2009 1:27 PM


Basically, all your doing is decribing a way that your god could have done things diferently and then claiming that your differences are better so therefore the Bible god isn't perfect anymore. You really haven't supported how your differences are better though.
Of course, "better" or "perfect" may be subjective. But something the Bible is undoubtedly clear on is that people should believe in God, should worship God, should obey God. Those points are rammed home again and again. How, then, is does a "better" or "perfect" God allow his existence and his doctrine to be disputable? If he thinks it is better for us not to believe in him, not to worship him, not to obey him, why does he keep telling us to believe in him, worship him and obey him? That doesn't make any logical, objective sense! I've suggested some simple ways in which he could make things easier for us to do what he wants. Almost anyone could do so. This alleged creator called God is less intelligent than the average human being! Therefore, he is totally incredible as any kind of divine super-being/creator.
Also, if we assume that Bible God is, in fact, perfect, then his way has to be the better of the ways rather than the way that you imagined.
A big "if". You assume that he exists and his way is perfect if you want. I won't for the reasons stated above. A better creator would not have made it difficult to understand things if it were important to understand them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2009 1:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2009 2:40 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 15 of 82 (536228)
11-20-2009 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
11-20-2009 1:51 PM


Re: Holy Writings
Since the God of the Bible already created Earth thousands of years ago, none of your gods could have created it. You have no evidence for anything else you claim your gods have done.
Was the Bible created before the Earth was created? Unless that's the case, your point makes no sense. Exactly how soon after the Earth was created was it necessary to get the god hypothesis into the patents office?
One of the points I was making is that there is no more evidence for God of the Bible than there is for any creator I could make up. So the God of the Bible is just as likely to be made up as the ones I list. What further evidence is there for a creator that made the Earth in 6 days than there is for one that made the Earth in 3 days, or 50 days? You could make further slight modifications to virtually every little section of the Bible, so that you end up with a radically different story, and it would be just as supported/unsupported by evidence as the Bible is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 11-20-2009 1:51 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by purpledawn, posted 11-20-2009 4:13 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 11-26-2009 10:37 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024