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Author Topic:   Kalam Cosmological argument
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 167 of 178 (334847)
07-24-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Percy
07-23-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Back to the topic
Percy writes:
So to reiterate what I said before, here are a list of effects which have no cause we know of, plus one more that occurred to me:
Nothing causes a particular atom of Uranium-238 to decay at a particular time. It just happens.
Nothing causes a particular electron to tunnel through the barrier of a tunnel diode. It just happens.
Nothing causes an entangled particle's wave function to collapse to either up or down spin upon being observed. It just happens.
Virtual particles. There is nothing that causes them to flit into existence. They just do, governed by the laws of quantum physics.
Which slit a particle travels through in diffraction experiments.
This negates the claim of the opening post that every effect must have a cause.
Even if all of those things you've pointed out above actually do have a cause that we discover in some new revelation of physics that STILL doesn't make the opening assumption of the argument valid.
The very reason the Kalam Cosmological argument exists is because we don't know if the universe has a cause or not. If we DID know it had a cause then the argument would not be required.
It is not valid to say "everything we know of has a cause, therefore EVERYTHING has a cause. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
And it's certainly not valid to just claim that everything has a cause. I could just as validly claim that NOT everything has a cause, and my claim would be just as well supported as the first (since we can't possibly know that either are true).
And even if we could prove that everything in the universe has to have a cause, it still wouldn't necessarily follow that the universe has a cause. The universe is not in the universe. Does it even make cognitive sense to claim that the universe has a cause? This is where it starts to hurt my head, but can time have a cause? I certainly don't think it makes sense to claim so, anymore than "before the big bang" makes sense if it is taken as t0 (first point in time).
Edited by happy_atheist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Percy, posted 07-23-2006 5:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by cavediver, posted 07-24-2006 3:52 PM happy_atheist has replied
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 07-25-2006 6:24 AM happy_atheist has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 169 of 178 (334973)
07-24-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by cavediver
07-24-2006 3:52 PM


Re: Back to the topic
cavediver writes:
The Universe just is. Whether finite or infinite, that is it.
I think that just sums it up perfectly. And it's surprisingly hard to admit it, probably because it goes against all common sense or intuition. But then that just goes to show how useless common sense can be when talking about things we don't know the answer to yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by cavediver, posted 07-24-2006 3:52 PM cavediver has not replied

  
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