A discussion of Gun Control for schrafinator

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When I was growing up, guns in the US were pervasive. Almost every livingroom had its gun rack and almost every household had guns.

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Um, are you sure you aren't conflating "almost every household in the US" with "almost every household I knew of, which was limited to a very small number of households compared to the entire number of households in the US."

Here are several of the the issues I see with guns and the NRA:1) The NRA fought a ban on assault weapons and fought reasonable criminal background checks or any reasonable short waiting periods at all for people wanting to buy guns.Assault weapons are not used in home defense nor in hunting; they are military weapons specifically designed to kill lots of people in a short amount of time.Also, why would they fight any regulation designed to keep guns out of the hands of known violent criminals?To me, this shows a reckless, irresponsible, unreasonable belligerance on the part of the NRA. If the NRA believes their motto "Guns don't kill people. People kill people", then why fight criminal background checks? Doesn't that get to the "people" part of killing?2) The NRA says that we don't need more gun regulation, but we need to enforce the ones we do have. That we need to better enforce our existing laws is true, but it is not true that we don't need more regulations.It is easy to go to a gun show and buy a handgun that is not designed to be semi-automatic and at another booth buy a device that quickly and easily converts it to what amounts to an assault weapon.Also, these gun shows, private sales of guns over the internet, which are "secondary" sales, do not require federal criminal background checks like when one buys a gun from a licensed gun dealer. They are often not regulated by the states, either. Thus a violent criminal could buy a gun perfectly legally in this way.This loophole needs to be legally closed. Does the NRA support this?No, they fight every effort to do so according to what I read on their website.3) There are few state and no federal laws (please correct me if I'm wrong) that prevents the bulk purchase of guns. This ability of people to purchase large numbers of guns at once is a major source of guns for illegal gun trafficking in the US and, according to a UN study, the US also is a major source of guns smuggled to other countries and used in terroist activities.Attention Required! | CloudflareWhat is the NRA stance on limiting bulk gun purchases?We can start with these, I suppose.

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Actually, I would feel confident that there were a bunch of households with guns when I was growing up. It is apoint that certainly can be challenged and one I will admit that I cannot defend.
But it was certainly nor unusual.

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Do you have any statistics on the rate of gun ownership (including type of gun) in the US over the last 50 years or so?Otherwise, it's just your personal impression of a tiny local sample.I only knew one friend in school who has a gun prominently displayed in her house, and it was her father's muzzle loader mounted over the fireplace.My grandparents never had guns, nor did their parents, who were immigrants. In all of the houses I have ever been in in my life, only that one had any gun prominently displayed.

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First what is an assault weapon?

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According to the Brady Bill: Why do you ask?Why does it matter to what I have said?

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No, as I said, I cannot defend that. It is, as I said, a belief. But I can say that few of the many hundreds of homes I visited were without guns.

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One thing that is true is that the rates of gun ownership has probably gone up in the last 50 years, but it's handgun ownership, not the kind of guns that are dispayed on racks in one's home.They are kept loaded in the bedside stand, waiting to be used to repel a home invader....unless Junior finds it first.

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There is absolutely no functional difference between what are classified (and what are often mistakenly called assault weapons such as the SKS or AK-47 by the media) and any other rifle beyond cosmetics.

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There is absolutely no reason that the guns listed as assault weapons and in particular those often called assault weapons can not be used for home defense, person protection, target and sport shooting and hunting.

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And that is why the NRA and shooters oppose the silly assualt weapon ban. It does nothing, has had no positive effects and has deprived a loarge numebr of people of their rights.

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Do you really need to empty 30 rounds of ammunition into a deer in two minutes to kill it?Wouldn't that ruin the meat?Now, please answer this: do you believe that it is your right to own a machine gun?

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The gun owners I know, and I know thousands, are pretty responsible folk. They do not have loaded guns where kids can get them. They have volutarily done what is needed to keep little kids (those under nine of ten or so) and unsupervised guns apart.

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It is a ridiculous claim that you personally know thousands of people well enough, and have been in their thousands of homes often enough to know very confidently how they keep their guns.You are extrapolating wildly from a very small sample.Your general impressions are great and all, but when actual studies are done, a different picture is painted:http://medlib.med.utah.edu/...ath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html"Firearms injury is the second leading cause of non-natural death in childhood and adolescence. (CDC, 2000)"Another study showed that two-thirds of accidental firearms injuries occured in the home, and one-third involved children under 15."

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Well, yes it is my right to own a machine gun.

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OK.Is it your right to own a grenade launcher?

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But that has nothing to do with assault weapons.

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Automatic weapons are not assault weapons. There is no relationship or connection between the two.

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Can you please explain to me how there is no relationship or connection at all between automatic and semi-automatic in the speed of round deployment of the UZI example below?Attention Required! | Cloudflare"An automatic weapon (machine gun) will continue to fire as long as the trigger is depressed (or until the ammunition magazine is emptied). A semi-automatic weapon will fire one round and instantly load the next round with each pull of the trigger. Semi-automatic firearms fire as rapidly as you can twitch your finger. This means that a semi-automatic fires a little more slowly than an automatic, but not much more slowly. When San Jose, California police test-fired an UZI, a 30-round magazine was emptied in slightly less than two seconds on full automatic while the same magazine was emptied in just five seconds on semi-automatic."

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But you are wrong. I do know thousands of gun owners, and know them pretty well.

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That just cannot be true, just from a physical standpoint.You would have to make a full time job of traveling to thousands and thousands of homes every single day of every year, visiting each home frequently, to check out if what they are saying they are doing is what they are actually doing.It's just not possible.Fifty or 70 I could buy, and even that's a lot, but thousands?? That's just silly to expect me to believe that.

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Among gun owners, gun safety is a very big issue. It's something we talk about constantly. Gun Safety is the number one issue among gun owners. It really is something we take very, very seriously.

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As a gun owner, the basic rules of safety are ingrained. We pratice them until they become rote.

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Among responsible gun owners, these issues are important.There is a significant minority of gun owners who are not responsible, as is obvious from the statistics I provided.I am sorry, but it seems to me that you are hiding your head in the sand and ignoring tens of thousands of needless deaths.

sure, no problem

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The difference is as you said. One is automatic, one is semi-automatic. One you pull the trigger and it keeps firing, one you have to pull the trigger each time.

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By the way, most modern automatics are designed to shoot three round bursts. Full auto on contiouos fire is not very accurate. The short burst is far better.

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But what does this have to do with ANYTHING?

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You said this: Then I asked; Attention Required! | Cloudflare"An automatic weapon (machine gun) will continue to fire as long as the trigger is depressed (or until the ammunition magazine is emptied). A semi-automatic weapon will fire one round and instantly load the next round with each pull of the trigger. Semi-automatic firearms fire as rapidly as you can twitch your finger. This means that a semi-automatic fires a little more slowly than an automatic, but not much more slowly. When San Jose, California police test-fired an UZI, a 30-round magazine was emptied in slightly less than two seconds on full automatic while the same magazine was emptied in just five seconds on semi-automatic."To me, the only difference I can detect is that it takes about 3 seconds longer to empty a 30 round magazine when the UZI is set to semi-automatic rather than automatic.To me, this is only the tiniest of differences in effect, yet somehow to you there is no relationship or connection at all between automatic and semi-automatic in the speed of round deployment of the UZI example.Three seconds difference in how fast one can empty a magazine isn't a big difference in any rational person's judgement.You can play word games all you want with what is an assault weapon and what isn't, but the effect of what these weapons actually do is what I'm interesed in discussing.Again, do you think you have the right to own a grenade launcher?

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The Grenade Launcher is pretty useless since the grenades cost about $75.00 each.

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Wouldn't it be great if bullets cost $75/each?Did you aquire your grenade launcher gun before September 13, 1994?

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edited to add: What does this have to do with anything?

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OK, you think it's your right to own a grenade launcher.Is it your right to own an anti aircraft-missile launcher?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-04-2004 12:16 AM

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I don't know if that would be covered under the 2nd or not. The second was not written to cover sports or hunting stuff, it was meant to cover those things that would be useful in overthrowing or supporting our Government. As such, it would most likely be covered.

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Don't own one and haven't really been looking for one. That though is without a doubt a military armament. I would certainly agree that an anti-aircraft Missile launcher ( the other way makes no sense) would be pretty useless for hunting, target practice or even personal defense.

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I am unclear about your answer.Do you believe it is a private citizen's RIGHT to own an anti-aircraft missile launcher?Yes or no?

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I also felt it was highly irresponsible of the father to not have the means at his disposal to be able to protect his family if the crap really hit the fan.

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http://medlib.med.utah.edu/...ath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html"The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. A of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). It would appear that, rather than beign used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families."Attention Required! | Cloudflare"Most women are killed by their intimate partners and over two-thirds are killed by guns.[4]""In 1997, the presence of a gun in the home made it 3.4 times more likely a woman would become a homicide victim and 7.2 times as likely she would be a victim of homicide by a spouse, intimate or close relative.[9]""For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting [note that every self-defense is legally justifiable] there are 22 criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related shootings.[15]""The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home.[16]""The presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide fivefold.[17]"

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Any gun is potentially an assault weapon. "Assault weapon" is just one of those catch phrases that becomes popular like "cop killer bullets" from a few years ago.

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Not according to "Gun Digest"."Attention Required! | Cloudflare'Even the gun industry disagrees with the NRA and uses the term "assault weapons" to refer to semi-automatic, military-style weapons. In 1986, Gun Digest, considered by many to be the Bible of the gun industry, first published a book entitled, The Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons. Here is what they had to say about a few of the weapons they test-fired for their second edition:"The Cobray M11/Nine bears a striking resemblance to the Ingram M11 submachine gun, because it is basically the same gun. Current manufacture is made in semi-auto.""[The Spectre], now being produced by F.I.E., is a semi-automatic clone of the Spectre submachine gun that is being manufactured in Italy....If you can't have the steak, you can still have the sizzle."'

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Guns are generally very finely machined so they last for hundreds of years unless they were neglected.

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Attention Required! | Cloudflare"Traditionally, Saturday Night Specials have been defined as non-sporting, low-quality handguns with a barrel length of under three inches (for pistols, overall length of under six inches). "Junk gun" is a more recent term used to describe handguns which lack essential safety features. Both terms refer to a class of inferior handguns produced in quantity by a group of manufacturers located in Southern California and known as the "Ring of Fire" producers. Whatever name attached to them, these handguns are not useful for sport or self-defense because their short barrels make them inaccurate and their low quality of construction make them dangerous and unreliable. They are, however, favored by criminals because of their low cost and easy concealability."Are domestically manufactured handguns required to meet any quality and safety standards?"There are currently no quality and safety standards in place for domestically manufactured firearms. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is prohibited by law from imposing safety standards on guns. The gun lobby has repeatedly pressured Congress to exempt domestically manufactured firearms from government regulation, thereby relieving the American gun industry from the safety standards that have applied to imported firearms for nearly 30 years.At the present time, teddy bears and toy guns are subject to stricter safety regulations than real handguns.""Four of the top six firearms traced in 1997, including the top three crime guns, were all Saturday Night Specials based on ATF tracing data. This is consistent with a May 1995 ATF report on gun traces, which found that of the ten guns most frequently traced to crime by ATF in 1994, seven were Saturday Night Specials. That year, four of the top five guns most frequently traced to crime were Saturday Night Specials."

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Probably.
I believe that would be exactly the kind of thing that would be covered under the 2nd Amendment.

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But I do understand that it would be challenged and I don't know how SCOTUS would decide.

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OK.Do you believe that it is the right of a private citizen to own a nuclear weapon?